Amir Parviz for secular monarchy

Who Knows More About Authentic Islamic Writing -A Cleric or You?

If you get sick, will you come to a layperson like myself, or will you go to a doctor who has studied medicine and who has been through medical school?

By the same token, if I want to know about Ayatollah Khomeini's interpretations of Shi'ite Islam, I should go to someone who has studied it - preferrably someone who has studied the same things that Ayatollah Khomeini studied...

...and someone who has done it for years, and has passed examinations to qualify as an expert. 

Searching the internet is not enough, obviously, to get a real expert opinion.

If you were really sick, would you just "google it", or consult with anglophile here, or would you go to the hospital and get seen by a real doctor?

Does it matter if JK believes it or not?

What is most ridiculous thing about some of the exchanges below is that a so called Johnny-come-lately who admits that:

"I don't know Arabic, dont' know anything about that website, and am also no expert on Shi'ite Islam"

demands authentic  and scholarly (LOL) proof so he can show it to yet another non-entity called Hakim (the most disgraced and beesavaad of all clerical gangs) who have been bedfellows with Khomeini and the Islamic regime, to authenticate Khomeini's drivel  - more LOL.

Now picture this:

(Johnny-come-lately is showing the copy of the book to a Hakim gang member) : So what do you think Haaj Agha? Is this stuff for real?

Haaj Agha Hakim:

لا تكليف في القرآن في الجنة يجوز للمسلم نكاح أخته و خالته

 Johnny-come-lately: Geeweez Haaj Agha! I got no clue what you are talking about but I am gonna tell those IC dudes you disapproved!!!

 LOLLLL

Jimmy Cater

Was and is a spiteful vindictive man. Who sacrificed his nation and Iran for his hatred of Shah. That is about all I say about that man. 

This is what relations can be like.

//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1292017/I-...

Since I can't post the pictures here the link.

About the beautiful soul comment, I think the real mistake

Iranians made was to not know him.

He told his friend the head of the French secret service, lets say that you are right and you are in meetings to replace me, that is America is deceiving me.  I can not be a source of oppression for my people, with the type of force you are alluding to being used against me, the only way to counter that is unimaginable A Shah can never do that to his people.

And so instead of doing a tiannemen style massacre in half a dozen cities and with no mercy forcing his oppoents to negotiate with him, he made it clear that if a gun was put to his head or the head of his own children infront of his eyes, he'd rather lose his life and that of his families, than betraying the deceived voice of the people of iran he was serving.

VPK More than any single thing Americans in America

Would not be getting run by a bunch of corrupt wall street and oil interests that has caused their country and democracy to decline.  The democrats could spend their time and energy fighting for real things like education and not carrying all the military burden themselves.  I really feel sorry for people that choose to go through life betraying their friends and alone. By idealizing Carter the democrats screw themselves.  Here's why.  The core philosophy of the democratic party is based on the idea "every body gets to win" no win/lose scenarios with anyone being left out.  He betrayed his own voters principles out of a relationship that made more sense for America than it can comprehend.

The Shah of Iran was a good man and had a beautiful soul.

Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, Aryamehr cared about our Freedom, Justice, environment, culture, art,
economy, education, development and many many other things.  Isn't it ridiculous to think he
didn't care for the political development of Iran?

Because of the attitudes of some, I feel as if the title of my post and it's contents is a personal attack on some.

So I'm flagging myself. : ) 

Betrayal

Never pays. Maybe there really is a Karma or whatever. But all those including Israel who wanted Shah gone paid for it. Just imagine with Pahlavi in power not one USA solider need be sent to Afghanistan. 

First of all Taliban or AQ would have never dared act. If they had Iran would have taken care of them long before USA. Without the hands tied behind your back attitude of Americans. The Iranian military would have gone in and cleaned it all up.

Not to mention Saddam would have been a puppy dog behaving. If he got out of line Iran Shah or the new Shah would have kicked his ***. USA would still have got its oil. But not had to spend trillions on nothing. Thanks Nobel Jimmy!

Every single group that betrayed the shah got doomed/cursed

Sadly that includes iranians in iran too.

FYI only Germany voted against imperialism, they are also unlike france, uk and usa the only country that never got any blow back.  All 3 lost trade relations with iran, germans got it all and not from under paying for our oil but actually working and fulfilling orders for iranians, politically pro german iranians never lost their reputations or got murdered like the pro uk/french/usa guys.

Sad thing is Iran had a pact with the USA, they had an alliance that was stronger in its commitments than with any other country in the world including nato, iran received anything it wanted from the usa because of this, weapons, ships nuclear subs and planes that israel did not even get from the usa ever.

We see that there is a moral to be learned and that martin luther king was right, there is a moral bend that history does follow.

The whole thing was a coup, not a revolution. 

Well Jimmy

got what he had sowed. His presidency in shambles; his party lost the Senate. The Democrats were nearly destroyed. It took them 12 years to retake the White House and even then with a Republican "light" named Clinton.

He also has his reputation permanently ruined. None of which makes up for what he did to Iran. Truth is that without American vote it would not have happened. If it was 1-3 with just America Jimmy would have done it anyway. Besides the British were always enemies of Iran so it was expected. France and Germany could have voted any way and it would have made no difference. Jimmy was out to get the Shah and he did. By doing so created the greatest disaster for USA in modern days.

As for you saying monarchists are conspiracy liars,

Go Check this out.

//www.studien-von-zeitfragen.de/Eurasien/Shah...

the only book that you can get easily in amazon.com is by Count Alexandre de Marenches memoire 

Its the 1990 memoire of the head of the french secret service who was a friend of the shah, and warned him years before of the meetings he was involved in where they were discussing how to use global propaganda to agitate the people, how to organize them and who to replace the shah with.

That pretty much sums up the same points we have repeated for 33 years.

before he wrote his memoire.  Constitutional Monarchists were giving the Same accounts.

There are 3 other sources all with the same exact detailed explanation of what happened from 1974 to 1976, the king of jordon, the ambassador of iran to turkey, president of france, Unlikely series of Coincidences,

I doubt it.

No dirty deed can remain a secret for long.  Eventually 20, 30, 40, 50 years later it all comes out exactly like we monarchists have been saying from day One to a T.

Jahan Khalili I have a physical copy of the book for you

Here is a message I got regarding it in the USA, you need to pursue this.  I am not in the usa and don't have a scanner.

We have it in stock.

Price: $125.00

====================================
Iranbooks, Inc.
5809 Massachusetts Avenue
Bethesda, MD 20816
Phone: 301-320-5600
Fax: 301-907-8707
info@iranbooks.com
www.iranbooks.com

amirparvizforsecularmonarchy

Its good to be skeptical.

If you want to believe something, you'll look for reasons why it is true and you'll ignore reasons why it isn't.

So the whole question is: what do you want to believe? 

People who are motivated by political allegiances cannot be neutral observers or disinterested researchers.

They'll seek confirmation of what they think already they know, and so they will have problems learning anything new. 

The best that most people here can do is to justify what they believe in. They probably cannot question their own beliefs, so they are useless for doing serious research.

OK

I'm going to show that to someone. I don't know Arabic, dont' know anything about that website, and am also no expert on Shi'ite Islam.

Also, whether this in fact contains the quotes that are claimed here, remains to be seen as far as I'm concerned.

I'm still waiting for Iranians to produce an example of the physical book and all of its pages. Strangely, they haven't - despite their constant talk about it. 

Tabarzin Re: Do you know a title and year of publication?

No I'm not even sure of the title exactly, I once saw it as something like, "les secrets d'etat"  It had to be written after January 1979 (when the guadeloupe meeting was held).  The book discusses what was said at the meeting in Guadeloupe created to solely discuss the removal of the Iran.

He basically blames carter, yet some authors say it was his and the british idea to remove the shah. Either way it is a valuable document until the real transcripts are declassified in 100 years.  Apparently it was 3 votes to 1, with Germany opposing using the political pressure manufactured by the USA to remove the Shah. 

Who ever's fault it really was to plan and execute it is not as important as the fact that it was infact planned and executed.

I wonder if any library has a list of names and dates of all the books he's ever authored from 1979 to 1985?

The only source I could find

With him as co-author was this. I checked Scribd and a couple of other online book databases, and this was all I came up with. Do you know a title and year of publication? If the book was published it is bound to be sitting on a public library shelf somewhere. If so, it can be tracked down.

wow these coversations are easily verifyable too

Count Alexandre de
Marenches, Head of the French intelligence-services, was greatly admired
by the Shah, who also thought of
him as a friend. He too warned the
Sovereign in no uncertain terms. Later, in his memoirs, the Count wrote,
"one day, I mentioned to the Shah the names of those Americans, who had
been assigned to plan his deposition and
replacement.

"I
had myself been present at a meeting, where one of the questions raised
was 'how do we get rid of the Shah, and with whom shall we replace
him?'

"The
Shah was unwilling to believe me," de Marenches continues, "saying, 'I
believe you about everything else, but not about this.'

'"But, Sire,' I said, 'why will you not believe me on this point also?'

"'Because,' he said, 'it would be stupid to replace me!'

'"I
am the best defender of the west,' he went on, 'in this part of the
world; I have the best army and the greatest power: the
whole thing is so absurd, that I cannot
possibly believe. Further on, Count de Marenches notes: "but the
Americans had made their decision."

A good find on revolution for those who doubt US did it

Djamchid Gharib spent a large part of his diplomatic career in Turkey,
where he was our ambassador, before he retired. In
1978, while spending his summer holidays
there - for he knew the country perfectly and had many, Turkish,
personal friends - he was told, by the two highest authorities in the
Turkish
government, that, according to their
information, Washington was preparing a coup, in Iran, involving certain
religious leaders; and they begged Djamchid Gharib to tell the Shah
"that he ought
not to trust the Americans". Secular
Turkey was worried about the possibility of a theocratic government
being installed in Iran. It was an important message, and, as soon as he
returned to
Teheran, Gharib asked for an audience
with the Shah.

//www.studien-von-zeitfragen.de/Eurasien/Shah...

Let me see what I can do...

*

Tabarzin Can you help me with research to find this book

It is called the secret of the states by valerie giscard d'estaing it's written in french, but I can't find it.  I want to know what it is called in french something like les secrets d'etates or something and which libraries might still have a copy or which used book store or online.

The thing is in the early 80's I heard the us secret service used one it's front companies to buy the rights to that book, so it could not be published large scale and the secrets would remain secret and presured the govt of france to keep its mouth shut and facilitate forcing giscard to give up the rights.

It is the only written account by a head of state, the only ones that attended the meeting were carter james callaghan the president of germany and him, refgarding what carter said in the meeting on the island of guadeloupe where they discussed the plans for removing the shah and bringing khomeini.

That is a book I want to get my hands on, get translated and put up online for iranians.  That way they will have documentation of what one leader says happened and how carter was the person with the goal of removing the shah.  How he planned to use Huyser to neutralize the miltary from protecting the constitution and fullfilling its legal obligations.

After I get the book, it would be good to know who owns the rights and put a name on it and maybe find out who the owners of the company are etc etc

Welcome

It was not that difficult to find, really. Just a bit of googling, and voila! 

In my world intellectual honesty is godliness, and those who are intellectually dishonest are walking a crooked path leading straight to hellfire - whatever creed, religion or ideology they profess. That is why I went to find a link to this thing because I found it pretty weird for our friend here to deny the existence of tahrir'ul-vasileh since it is one of Khomeini's most celebrated treatises on  fiqh.  Indeed there is some really crazy nonsense in this work, but Khomeini isn't the only one who has written this sort of work. The whole madrasa establishment of Usuli Shi'ism has been producing a veritable industry of these kinds of works for a long time.

Thanks Tabarzin I clicked on the Also Here button

Not the address but on "Also Here"

And it took me right to it.

And I checked the Domain and it is part of a shia islamic foundation, so I think they are a credible source.  I don't know who al-Milani Foundation is but he sounds like an IRI sponsored foundation.

Good Work Tabarzin.

تحرير الوسيلة

//www.shiastudies.com/library/arabic/00-noor/wwg/004-tahrir/index.htm

Also here

No Reply = No Credibility

If you're making a claim, its up to you to back it up with evidence.

If you're already looking for a way to get out of being responsible for your own views and claims and you're already trying to avoid showing proof that this Tahrirolvasyleh exists and the quotes in it are authentic - after all the excitement you've all shown over them - what can we conclude? 

You can pretend that there is something wrong with me for asking you all to show the book ALL YOU LIKE.

It won't do you any good. 

amirparvizforsecularmonarchy

Don't reply to it please my friend! This thing is like "kane" it sticks to you and won't go. Just let it go the best way to deal with it is "no response". 

One Clue That The "Tahrirolvasyleh" Quotes Are False...

.... is that the people who make them are always people who don't know anything about Shi'ite Islam, and who are using them for political purposes.

I've NEVER heard of them from any religious Shi'ite Muslim. You'd think they would be the first people I would have heard about them from, if they were genuine.

So let's see what you all can do.

How many Iranians does it take to get a damned book that they all swear by and talk their heads off about, and scan it and post it? 

Relax, amirparvizforsecularmonarchy

If you can produce the book, you have nothing to worry about.

I'm just keeping the focus here.

I'll overlook your insinuations about who I am and what I think, to give you a chance to do your thing.

Otherwise, I'll never stop asking for the book.

Like I said, I'm going to show it to some people who will probably be able to tell if its authentic.

Oh No, Not you again! And so soon too, darn!

Shouldn't you be praying or something?  Doesn't Satan have any other work for you to do tonight?

What are you gonna pretend you can't read as well?????  Didn't I say it would take me 2 days to get in touch with someone that can get you an original copy, being Sunday and no one responding to emails until tomorrow?  If you can'y read so why am I getting you a copy of the book?  Oh yeah right I forgot you are going to get Hakim to read for you.  : ) That's okay, he can give it to his mother so she can read it for him and I'm sure he'll be happy.  For now look over the pdf versions so you can find the relevant pages with quotes from the big PUPPET MAN himself and then you will have a head start.

Oh what, you are absolutely convinced the pdf has to be a conspiracy, because evil people never win in life?  I got news for you, your real boss, the one hiding behind the name of God, Satan, he sometimes wins in the short term, yet it is with time that he loses his grip.  At least you are not questioning the existence of the book. Kudo's for that.

There endeth the lesson for tonight, until tomorrow night, sweet dreams.

When All the Tough Talk and Insults Have Finally Subsided...

... I'll still be waiting for someone to show me this book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", that you're all quoting.

What's the matter, can't you complete such a simple task as scanning a book that you all claim is easily obtainable? 

Yes, the Hakim Family Know More About Shi'ite Islam Than You

Get used to it, anonymous losers.