Hajminator

Shazde Jan,

if you want to win, you have to "Fit the Reality" better than your opponent! It is the survival of the fittest, after all.

Very nicely put. That is exactly my point. Everyone has to fit the reality as we can not live in pipe dreams. And to fit the reality, EVERYONE has to know him/her-self by knowing exactly were (s)he comes from and also sacrifices that were been made and allowed him/her to arrive where (s)he is.

Sepass az mohabatet.

A lied about true statement is better than a truthful lie or was

it the other way around?

Anyhoo ... in my book, "the real is always rational and only the rational can ever become real", said Ayatollah Hegel.

If A defeats B, then A is more "rational", meaning more fit to the reality of the real world, than B.

If religion A replaces religion B, then it has been more "rational" ... If empire A replaces empire B ... If culture A displaces culture B ...

Like the zeroes and ones inside your computer, there are fundamentally only two types of phenomena, creatures, ideas, people, etc in this world: the Winners and the Losers! The living and the dead, the victor and the vanquished ...

Except that, today's winners are tomorrow's losers, and it goes round-and-round, because there is no such thing as a straight line in the universe! Yesterday's glorious dinosaurs are today's rotten bones. Ancient civilizations are school children's toys, blah blah blah.

There is only one constant: if you want to win, you have to "Fit the Reality" better than your opponent! It is the survival of the fittest, after all.

شراب سرخ گرامی

از همبستگی و دوستی همیشگی شما سپاس گذارم.

حقیقت مقاومت ما ایرانیان بر علیهه جهل و زور در تمام دوره تاریخ پر قدمتمان حقیقتی انکار ناپذیر است. در مورد این نامه ها چیزیکه مهم است محتویاتشان نیست، بلکه ایستادن یزدگرد در مقابل زور بود که همه شواهد دال بر این مطلب دارند.

به نظرم، ما باز در شرایط خاص تاریخی دیگری هستیم و اینبار پیروزیمان برعلیهه شرارت مشروط براتحادمان است.

...

چه اهمیتی دارد که آیا این نامه راست باشد و یا کذب ! مهم بیداری ایرانیان است و بس .

 نگذارید که جاهلان وطن فروش بین شما عزیزان نفاق بی‌ اندازند که اینان نه خانه در دل کسی‌ دارند و نه آبرویی پیش کس !

حاجی جان از بلاگ شما مثل همیشه استفاده کردیم.

خدا قوت .

Conclusion

Thank you for your replies and the wealth of information that you provided. I can write back and challenge the points, but then I think this can continue forever. The very more specific discussion of conversion by force is now continuing in another blog. We all learn and reach conclusion by gradual accumulation of information and I hope what has been exchanged in here plays a rule in the future conclusions that all contributors make.

with respect

آقای د

I am sorry to be too busy at my work to return to this blog.  Maahee raa har vaght az aab begeree taazeh ast. 

1.  I ignore your first paragraph as it is your personal point of view about a law in a land. 

2.  In you second paragraph I feel that you are mixing Islam and Arab.  There is a great gap between the two.  Your example of Joveinee, Brother, doesn't fit in the argument.  Joveinee and Rasheed-o-deen Fazl'ollah are intergrated part of the ruling Monghol invading hords.  Do you know that Joveinee calls the Monghols under Halakoo "army of Islam" and calls Esmaalees Malaaeen.  Read the Sar Gozasht'e Seyyedona part of his book.  He is the person who has been appointed to investigate the Esmaaeelees' library after the fall of Alamoot.  So his stand, however he is a great historian, is understandable; but Tabaree is not a part of the ruling elite of the Abbasee family.  Even at times he has been harassed for his works. In Islamic tradition research for the sake of research is not the aim.  Research for the sake of good things or learning a lesson has always been advocated.  Modern time scholars do not have such a commitment; therfore, I do not compare them to Islamic researchers and scholars from that point of view.

3.  With respect, there is no Monghol style of painting.  You are aware the Monghols were coming on a huge wave of Turkish-speaking people (fighters).  One of those people were the Oyghors of Toorfaan who had converted to Manaveegaree sometime after that religion spread eastward at the time of the Sasanee.  Miniature style of painting especialy with careful attention to red colors was developed among Manavees.  Manee's book of Artang is famous in history for its fabulous paintings.  With the Monghol invasion of Iran, that style of painting came back to Iran and was successfully re-adopted and flourished, however as the rulers were Monghol, Oriental features became the model.  Even Prophet has been painted with Mongholian features.  You can see these pictures in history book.  Unfortunately, I do not recall their names now. 

4.  Related to the previous subject, there is a legal code called "Yassaye'e Changeezee" which was a collection of rules and regulations that Changeez Khan invented to organize the relationship among his own people as well as those who had recognized his leadership.  If Iranians had any love toward Mongols, they must have started writing interpretations and long arguments about that code which was the exemplification of the Khan's thoughts.  Quite honestly, in early ninteen ninties I tried to find something about that legal code, and I failed.  Nothing has been left of that all over the world.  Recently, I have not searched.  Can you compare that to the amount of the time and engergy spent by Iranians on the Qoraan and Islam from its arrival to Iran until today?  Before establishment of the British Empire, the Mongol Empire is the largest and the mightiest Empire in History.  Its territories was much larger than what Moslems had conquered.  Why we acquired only a few words and some paintings and an art of historiography from them, which was ours already, while Islam lasted so long with us?  I say force and killings do not create art.  Love deos.

5.  Again, when it comes to people like Ibn-Seena and Farrabee, they are highly devoted  to Islam while it appears Razee to be a materialist.  I have not read their works to talk about them, however I still remember Ibn-Seena's poem blasting those who accuse him of blasphemy towards Islam.  The misleading problem is that, I think, today everything that is towards nehilism and searching pleasure at any price (today's most accepted values) are regarded good and highlighted as universal values and those which invite to modesty and self-control and self-containment are demonized no matter it they are stemmed from Islam or any other way of thought.

6.  Again about Hafez.  You know that almost in every Ghazal he calls himself the Hafez of the Qor'an.  You know many people in the Moslem world are Haafez and have not claimed to be Haafez.  Hafez even brags about his title because he is not only the Hafez of the whole Qor'an, but also he can recite it in fourteen different traditions of fourteen different Sahaabeh of the Prophet: Qor'aan ze bar bekhaanad be cheaardah ravayat.  I do not think he says this out of hatred towards the Qor'aan.  It just doesn't make sense.  I believe the musical beauty in Hafez' works is directly stemmed from the musical tone in the Qoran.  Some allusions to prohibited practices in Islam in Hafez' work have to be interpreted within the framework of Erfaan'e Islamee and not materialism and Een Damo Khoshbaash.  They have their own intepretations.  He was not sick to go through every harship of the stages of Erfaan and come to such a ;ousy and cheap conclusion.  Gar Mosalmanee Hameen... is a clear crticizem of those who were claiming they were good Moslems and were doing everything in a righteous way while they were not.

7.  Without going into reports of captive killings in Islam, I should say that history is not the reliable source of deriving Islamic decrees.  Let me say that even Nahjo'ballaghe is not a reliable source to derive Islamic decrees.  Sources of decree are Qoran, Hadith, Seereh, Ejmaa, and Aghl.  I do not go there as I am not very much qualified.  I already mentioned about the Kheibar that their killing was based upon a decree from the Torah.  In Islam as I far as I know, killing captives is prohibitted.  I am not a Fagheeh.  You should ask some one who knows Feghh to give the exact decree.  As a matter of fact many people who fell captive to Moslems bought their freedom, or did a certain service like teaching illiterates how to read and write and were set free.  Some of them were bought back by their relatives.  Examples are plenty.  There is no decree that Moslems must kill their captives.  Also, every Moslem believes that Prophet stands above the law as he is the law-giver.  Since this matter is delicate and requires sophisticated knowledge, it should be referred to an expert.

8.  I totally agree with you about Cyrus' image in the Torah.  Again, there are reasons for his good treatment of the Jews specially those who wanted to go back to Palestine.  See, Palestine is sitting on the way to Egypt which Cyrus had plans to conquer.  He needed allies on his way through the desert.  Still, I believe his treatment of the Babylonians with all accounts was better than modern conquerors.  I wish you knew Iraqis' (Sadam and his ilks) view about that capture. What I criticized is our false perception about that cylinder.  Again, I ask you to read British translation and compare it with the one at the UN presented by the Shah.

What kind of lesson Hedaayat wants to teach except that the whole motivation of human-being is his sex drive and belly and nehilism?  A book-burning writer (historian?)?  What kind of contradiction is this?  Did he start the tradition of book-burning or upheld it?

Thanks 

Dear Mr Avaznia

I have never been so rude to permit myself to ask anyone to verify his or her beliefs and I am very sorry if I have given that impression here.

Let me start by reminding you that a few days ago a young 23 years old Kurd was executed for the crime of having had sex when he was 17. This is the true face of Islam and not the romanticised version that exist in the minds of some of Muslim citizens of the Western countries. The romantics enjoy the freedom that the secularism has brought to the societies that one day were as much tortured by religion as the present Iran, and yet beat their chest for Islam. I say this with all due respect and do not wish to cause any offence.

Sir, I did not mix and ideology with a personality. There were many works of art and literature created purely because of Mughul. Joveini wrote his Jahangosha to record the history of Mughul conquest. Our beloved artist Behzad followed the Mughul style of Miniature. I do not imply that the Iranians created their work because of their love for Mughul culture, but they neither did the earlier works for the love of Arab culture. The people that you name such as Bukhari, Tabari and the rest, all belong to at least two hundred years after the Hijra. Why the love of Islam did not create anything in those early years of invasion. Did you expect Iranians to stop being creative. Of course society shows its creativity within the defined boundaries. Beside Kalam or Hadith, there has also been much discussion of the Greek philosophies by such outstanding scholars such as Avesina and Razi. This is what you expect from a civil society who values learning and progress.

With regards to Tabaree, I was aware of his Iranian origin and find his writing style one of the best examples of Persian literature. I was not aware of the Tabareeyeh branch. The fact that he has written his history or a tafsir, do not necessary lead to your conclusion of his love for Islam. Again without wishing any offence and just as an example, a western historian who writes about the Nazi Germany or discusses the Mein Kampf is not necessarily devoted to Fascism. People may wish to study and write about issues that have affected societies from purely academic stance.

I have also read the whole Shahname and cannot recall any mention of Islam with exception of the few customary lines in praise of Prophet and the four Rashedin at the beginning of the book.  In the next section, there is even more lines in praise of Mahmoud. Pass these formalities and you find it full of love for the pre-Islam culture and religion of Iran. With Hafez, that verse could be from him or perhaps not.  I am certainly not qualified to make such judgements. I can however deduce from his poets that he was not concerned with religion and as we all know he was even got himself into trouble for this (Gar mosalmani az een ast ke Hafez darad). His Divan is full of other verses that show his beliefs (Samae Vaez Koja, Naghmeh Robab Koja).

I will read the Beeston inscription on your recommendation, but let me inform you that I have not claimed that the Hakhmaneshee never killed their captives. To my little understanding the captives were part of the booty and were sold as slaves.  I will be grateful if you provide some insight and evidence into this. There are however evidences that Muslims killed the captives. Here are three examples of the treatment of captives by no other than the prophet himself.

Ishaq: 308 “Halfway to Medina, Ocba [one of the captives] was called out to be executed.” [Context note: since the other prisoners were being held for ransom, Ocba asked Muhammad why he was being treated more harshly than the other captives.] “The Prophet said, ‘Because of your enmity to Allah and to his Prophet.’ ‘And my little girl,’ cried Ocba in bitterness, ‘who will take care of her?’ ‘Hell Fire,’ Muhammad responded. At that moment he was decapitated. ‘Wretch that you were, [Muhammad said] you scoffed at me and claimed that your stories were better than mine. I give thanks that Allah has slain you and comforted me.’ ”

Tabari 8:122/Ishaq:515 The Prophet gave orders to Zubayr concerning Kinanah, saying, “Torture him until you root out and extract what he has.” So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.

Bukhari:V4B52N261 “A group of eight men [...] killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died.”

The sentenced that I stated from the Cyrus cylinder does in fact convey the correct message that Cyrus allowed the defeated people to live in peace. Here is the part of the text that leads to that sentence, and on your request from British Museum translation.

32. the gods who lived therein, and made permanent sanctuaries for them.  I collected together all of their people and returned them to their settlements,

33. and the gods of the land of Sumer and Akkad which Nabonidus – to the fury of the lord of the gods – had brought into Shuanna, at the command of Marduk, the great lord,

34. I returned them unharmed to their cells, in the sanctuaries that make them happy.  May all the gods that I returned to their sanctuaries,

35. every day before Bel and Nabu, ask for a long life for me, and mention my good deeds, and say to Marduk, my lord, this: “Cyrus, the king who fears you, and Cambyses his son,

36. may their … […......................................................…….].”   The population of Babylon call blessings on my kingship, and I have enabled all the lands to live in peace.

Finally, we learn about Cyrus not only from his own cylinder but also by what others have scribed about the great king including the Torah.

With regards to Hedayat, I have also read almost all his books and I did not find them sad. Some of these indeed contain an excellent satire, but then we all have different tastes. Kasravi cannot be repudiated for having burned some books and his historical investigation of Shiism, Baabism and Bahaism are some of the best reference books into the contemporary history of Iran.

Sorry that I wrote so much but I had to do justice to the subject.

With best regards.

Mr. D.

With respect, I do not need to verify my religious beliefs for an unbeliever, however factulaity in writing history is important.  I try my best to answer your questions one by one.

1.  To hell with "Manam", this little person has spent sometime (around ten years on studying Iranian and Islamic history).  Mistakes are mistakes.  Anyone can commit them and I am not here to cover my a...  I assure you that I believe in holiness of pen as Allah has taken oath in it; neither myself nor my father has eaten the bread of pen; and I am not here to fabricate facts to justify a stand. 

Before recent noises against Islam Sir; I became an atheist based upon some illusions that I thought were truths and what passed in Iran after the revolution and my unhappiness with them.  You may refer to my book "A Path to Nowhere" on this site that I have written this over seventeen years ago.  The totality of Qora'n's translation in English I read in Canada 1991 for the first time in order to find problems with it.  Several times I have re-read it ever since.

2.  You maintain that works of arts, literature, and science after Islam are not inspired by Islam.  You compare those works with those that were created after the Mongol invasion.  I am amazed that you compare Islam as a school of thought with a Person like Changeez.  Person has to be compared with person and thought with thought.  Again, I do not understand why a huge pile of religious works of the Iranians about every aspect of Islam is contributed to something besides interest and love.  What kind of belief the Mongols brought with themselve which Iranians were supposed to work on them?  And what they did about it?  Almost Zero.  Are you telling me that Kalaam and its different branches in Iran was created not to defend Islam? I wrote Imam Bokharee is among greatest of Islamic  scholars of Islam and he comes from Bokhaara.  Qur'anic interpretations are aboundant by Iranians of every side even in Farsee.  My memory doesn't help now to count them for you.

3.  Regarding to Tabaree.  First you should know that Tabaree is of Iranian origin; apparently from Mazandaran.  He is not only a man who wrote that great book of history which has detailed many aspects of early Islamic history, but also he is the head of a Sunni branch of Islam called Tabareeyeh.  Also, he has a great book of interpretation on the Qora'n known as Tafseer Tabaree.  If all these works are not done out of love for Islam, you can put the name you like on him: Perhaps, the Greatest Hipocryte is a good title, however it is not true.  Regarding to Kheybar, it is a credit to Moslem historians that they told the truth.  Now after fifteen centuries you change the story and utter something to sound nice.  You may refer to the Old Testament regarding to treatment of traitors and then put the question to Sa'ad Ebn Ma'az (a converted Jew) why he made such a ruling. 

4.  Regarding to Ferdowsee Sir.  For your information I have read the entire shahnameh about a year ago.  Also, I have read the line  "Khak'e Peye Heidaram".  The Shahnameh that I have is 1968-page long and tracing lines in Masnavee style of peotry is hard.  If you send me your email address on my email address at Iranian.com, I will definitely send you the exact line once I locate it.  Regading to Hafez; I should like to refer you to the Ghazal ending with letter "f".  It ends like this:

حافظ اگر قدم نهی در ره خاندان به صدق

بدرقۀ رهت شود همت شحنۀ نجف

He is clearly talking about the family of Propher (Ali and Fatemeh and their childern) a Shee'ee believe.

5. My knowledge about Hakhmaneshee Dynasty comes from my studies of their history that I took some courses on and from existing documents that I have found on  the net.  I still stand on my word that they were killing their captives.  Daruish's reliefs on Beestoon show exactly what I say.  I am re-reading the Behistun inscription in Old Persian.  You can read them too.  As a matter of fact Dariush brags about his muderous policies.  Search for Behistun Inscriptions and please read them for yourself. As far as I know, killing captives are prohibitted in Islam.  Perhaps, you can argue against this.  For now I do not have the document in memory to present.

Your quatation from Cyrus is great, however it is about other gods who are supposed to ask Marduk to let Cyrus and his (ommitted) to dwell in peace.  This is not Koorosh's permition but he wishes lesser gods to intervene with Marduk for Koorosh, his son's, and perhaps troops to dwel in peace.  Still, it is limitted to Babylonia and its immdediate surroundings not the whole empire which extended from  Indus to Beinonahrein until then. If it were anything like that, the document would have been sent to the entire Empire not to be burried at the foundation of Marduk's temple.  It seems it is just a justification for his divine rule over his subjects.  Nevertheless, peace  (which is a rather vague and general term) is not a part of human rights declaration.  Where in the human rights it says subjects should kiss the king's feet that Koorosh claims has been done to him?  Even if we accept your argument that it is about (all) still it is a specific favor at a specific time and not law of the land.

Now, you please compare the translation of the British Museum with what had been presented to the UN and find the difference.

Regarding to Westerners works.  Perhaps, they did so to please the Shah's haughtiness.  Ever since (perhaps) no Western academic institution has ever said this is a wrong translation in order to put things straight.  This happens only when some people work for money and not the truth.  Westerners' love for money has no limit.  By the way, do you know the name of the person (s) who has translated the document at the UN?  Please, let me know as well.

6.  Regarding to Hedayat.  I have to tell you that I read (almost) all of his works when I was a teenager.  With the exception of a few academic works like translation of Karnameh's Ardasheer Baabakaan, today I will not read them.  These said, I believe he has a wonderful style, beautiful writing; however there is absolutely no hope in them.  Perhaps, my habitual pessimism and sadness for a long time to come stemmed from reading his works.  Any way, I will never recommend his works to my children.  His life is the mirror of his thoughts.

Regarding Kasravee.  Until recently I did not believe that he and his ilks were setting Iranian great works of literature on fire based upon some presumptions.  Always, I thought these were Akhonds' propaganda until I read about it on this site.  If an intellectual figure like Kasravee does these, what do you expect from those who came from the desert?  These said, except some historic and well-researched works of Kasravee, I believe most of his works are not deep and he is not in the position to criticize Suffism and Shee'eesm any way.

I yelped too much

Shaad Baashee

F.B. Jaan;

امید که پدر شما غرق آمرزش الهی باشد.  کسانی که با تاریخ ایران پس از اسلام آشنایی دارند در مطالعاتشان به جنبشی بنام شعوبیه برخورد می کنند. اینان روشنفکرانی بودند که در برابر نژادپرستی برهنه ی خانوادۀ اموی علیه ایرانیان همین آیۀ قرآن را، که اتفاقا اشاره ای به دیانت هم ندارد، شعار خود قرار دادند و کارهای فرهنگی بزرگی در راستای حفظ ارزشهای فرهنگی ایران پیش از اسلام انجام دادند.  اگر اشتباه نکنم، یکی از آنها عبدالله بن مقفع معروف است. البته این باضافۀ شورشهای شیعی و خوارج در ایران است. شعوبیه آنقدر مهم است که خیزش ابومسلم را روی سیاسی نظامی شعوبیه دانسته اند.  در هر صورت، ایمان ایرانیان به اسلام ایمانی ریاکارانه، یکباره، و سودجویانه، بزدلانه نیست. اتفاقا، اسلام هم دنبال چنین مسلمانانی نیست.  بخش بزرگی از فرهنگ اسلامی وامدار تلاشهای صادقانه و عدالت طلبانۀ ایرانیان است.  تعجب می کنی اگر سعدی بگوید: بنی آدم اعضای یک پیکرند؟

شاد باشی 

AO jaan, this proved once more

As I have persistently repeated that "core identity of every Ommatie wether shaikhs of the past or their modern versions seek their lineage in Hejaaz and Pan-Arab glory" . Hajmi's blog as in the case of others like it ,did something that is a forbidden sin in the realm of Ommah which is to question their core identity aka Pan-Ommah/Arabism . You can dis religion/Iran/Mullahs or even the regime but the moment you question Bedoine genocide & legacy they all(big shots & ft soldiers) rise up in defence of their true lineage and ezzat al arabii ;) . & as for deletion, do as I do & never address an ommatie in 1st person in which there is  a wisdom behind it that 1; they are not legit enough to argue with as an Iranian and 2, dont give the bosses excuses they,re looking for to practice partisanship.

Cheers Kiaani pilgram !!!

Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia

I don't know what's going on

Jaleho can use profanity in her comments, like here:

 //iranian.com/main/blog/manoucher-avaznia-249

she can call people "liar" in the topic section (which I have flagged before and was never deleted), but when I point out that she has lied in her comment here about Samsam and I (see for yourselves), my comment is deleted. 

I let the readers figure this one out. 

Divaneh Iran... (I'd like to call you)

Doorood va Afareen bar shoma Irani rasteen.

Agha Avaznia and his likes, Maa Aasheghe Iran hastim va bas! Heech Arab va Moslmoone eshghalgari roo pazeeraa naboodeem , neesteem va na-khahim bood... In roo to sare ghafeletoon foroo koonid.

Ay Iran, maa az roozi ke dar bande eshghe toeem, Aazaadeem ...

Lanat Khoda bar harchi Arab va Eslam parste Eshghal gare ke Irane maa raa veeraan kardand va hanooz ham dast bar daar neestand.

Not so fast Mr Avaznia

Reading through your comments in this blog, I have found some of them highly questionable and feel that it is appropriate to highlight some of these.

Iran was Islamised by sword and that is an undeniable fact. Your comment that if Iranian scholars did not like Islam, would not write books, is laughable.  With your logic, many great poets, writes, historians and scientists who created their masterpieces after the Mogul Invasion, must have done it for the love of Ghenghis and his son Ogedey. What on earth has the work of historian such as Tabbari has to do with Islam or any other religion? If anything, he has recorded crimes such as what happened to Kheybar farmers. And, please have some respect for Ferdowsi who did re-invigorate the Persian language and not re-invented it as you have stated. The great man devoted all his life to Iran, its heritage and language. Yes, he wrote a few lines about the Mohammed, but where did he say “Khak Paye Heidaram” ? If you ever studied Shahname you could easily see which side enjoyed his love and devotion. You also bring Hafez into this without remembering that he seems to be more in love with wine that with those who preach Islam.

In your defence of rape of Iran by Arab armies, you claim that Iranians were killing their captives and then have further claimed that Cyrus respect for other religions was limited to Babylon. Where does your knowledge come from? In maintaining, that the simplistic UN accepted a fake translation of the Cyrus Cylinder from Shah, you forget that the cylinder was translated by western archaeologists and not on the order of the late Shah. You wanted one word from the original translation to convey Human Rights. Here is the last sentence of the cylinder’s true translation: “I permitted all to dwell in peace”. I  hope it suffice.

You defend Islam tooth and nail and condemn likes of Sadegh Hedayat for hating Arabs at the time that Iran was dominated by British and Russians. Well, in these free thinkers’ mind, our sorry and weak state was a symptom, and the cause was Islam. You name one advanced and strong Islamic country. They did not like the message and hence didn’t approve of the messenger. Absence of reason cannot justify character assassination and hence calling Kasravi a book-burner and disregard all of his work for that reason is just mean. After all, book burning was the gift of the invading Muslim armies and that is another undeniable fact.

In one place you claim that Iranian attempts in expelling the invaders were only against the Banee Ommeyeh and Banee Abbass who had failed to follow the line of the Prophet. Then somewhere else you claim that people of all faith were discussing their beliefs freely in Mamoon’s court as an evidence for the fairness of Islamic rule. How could the Iranian be against those who in your view,  were granting them freedom?

I could not help feeling that you tamper with the facts to support your religious beliefs.

The double standards in

The double standards in censorhsip on IC stink up to high heavens in addition to hypocrisy of those who use different IDs revealing further their cowardice and duplicitous nature. I'm out of here. 

Friends,

Shall we avoid name callings and Hormat shekani?

fouzol bashi: What is your

fouzol bashi: What is your definition of ill-intentioned and bigotted?

judge not lest ye be judged. I consider that Parhizkari.

Vildemose - I have my ideas of parhizkari

and one of the most useful is not to get into useless banter with ill-intentioned bigoted folk!  

Fouzlbashi: What does

Fouzlbashi:

What does Parhizkari mean? Does Islam respect diversity outside of Dar-Al-Islam?? If it does, then what is the business of amer-be-maroof, Nahy az monker??

Sohraby Jan,

You're welcome my friend. Marhoom pedar bozorogam used to say that there are always some truths mixed in with falsehoods and deceptions.

Fake or not Fake

Thanks for your blog. Maybe this one is a fake letter but such a letter exist . Truth talks, BS walks.

منوچهر عزیز

ای مردم شما را از زن و مردی آفریدیم و گروه گروه و قبیله قبیله کردیم که یکدیگر را بشناسید. بهترین شما نزد خداوند پرهیزکارترین شما است

ممنون برادر.  مرحوم پدرم اینرا بارها در برابر نا عدالتی ها، نژاد پرستی ها، فیس و افاده های ابلهانه و خود بزرگ دیدن های دون مایگان برای ما تکرار می کرد.  می گفت معنای عدالت اجتماعی درک  تجلی وحدت در گوناگونی و ارز نهادن به این تجلیات است. 

vildemose

no worries.  Mine was deleted once too, so I had to re-post. :-)

BTW, speaking of delusions of grandeur, look at these monkeys:

 //iranian.com/main/2009/dec/advanced-missile-test

buying a bunch of pieces of 1960's crap from North Korea and calling it homemade missiles.   :-)

Really? My comment is

Really? My comment is deleted because I state the obvious.

What else would you call a supporter of those butchers in Tehran?

Mother Teresa???

She can attack anyone but noone can respond.

Jaleho

If you try to actually read comments before you start your personal attacks you will note that both Samsam and I have said from the beginning that this document is fake.  Nonetheless, you can't resist to personally attack those who knew who you are and what you stand for since day 1 that you made your appearance on this site.  But the good news is that being attacked by some one with zero credibility like you is actually a good thing. :-)))

by the way, sister, bolding a piece of nonsense doesn't make it any less of a nonsense. :-)) 

JalehO khanoom,

Hala chera shoma az kooreh dar rafti? If I had posted a greeting card from Imam Mehdi in Jamkaran to A.N. congratulating him for his massacres. What would have you said? Oh look, A.N. is truly a holy man that even the invisible Imam sends him greeting cards for Moharam?

No to be more serious, there is nothing “folie des grandeurs” in knowing his/her history. I said that the veracity of the letter is questionable but what is true is that Persian kings in their time and Iranians afterward didn’t accept the Islamic hegemony.

If you don’t think so, rather than flouting and insulting people, make your points and we’ll see.

This is DELUSION of grandeur

on the part of those who beat their chest with the uniqueness of Persian Empire, and anything Persian, for the lack of knowledge of other empires and because of their oghdeh khod kam bini in general.

No wonder you see the same crowd  willing to believe in any unfounded garbage that a minimum of scholarly check would prove it wrong. And even after they are proven wrong, they'd throw their arms and say "So what if the story is wrong? so far as it pampers my pathetic ego, let's distribute it!"

Vildemose asks Anonymous Observer and Samsam to blog more feel-good-blogs ;-) Here Vildemose, Anonymous Observer already had a similar feel-good nonsense in which she claims that Einstein in a Norooz party of a great Iranian physicist was so impressed by great Persians "ke rang az roosh parid!"

//iranian.com/main/blog/anonymous-observer-0

(don't forget to read Asadkhan's fantastic version in that blog :-) :-)

As JJ says, if you feel good about writing garbage and pat your own back, fine. Have the free entertainment, Samsam, Anonymous Observer and Vildemose are always there to clap for your art. As Manoucher implied, the American neocons had the same delusion of grandeur about Pax Americana, and your silly pride is at least not bloody like theirs!

What I keep from these (semi-true) messages are

• It is likely that Arabs asked Persians to convert themselves into Islam as they did in their preliminary conquest steps toward other nations,
• Persians refused the offer. Now, that this refusal is exactly what is mentioned in the second letter is questionable. For myself, I doubt that Omar or another Arab ruler had kept the refusal letter religiously somewhere. However, it is not exactly the form of the letter which is important but its content and we mostly agree that it was a great NIET.

From 1400 years to now, our efforts

• to mutate sunnism into shi’ism in order to preserve our identity from Arabs,
• to keep our language as best as we could,
• to keep our pre-islamic cultural events,
• etc.

attest a single reality that we Persians didn’t accept what Arabs tried to feed us at the beginning. The message is that we are not really defeated as we keep kicking around.

FB

ای مردم شما را از زن و مردی آفریدیم و گروه گروه و قبیله قبیله کردیم که یکدیگر را بشناسید. بهترین شما نزد خداوند پرهیزکارترین شما است.

این برگردان شاید کامل نباشد

آقای عوض نیا

با سلام، لطف کنید معنای این را هم به فارسی بفرمایید.  درود بر شما

"Ya ayohannass Enna Khalaghnakom Men Zakaran wa Onsa wa Ja'al naakom sho'oovan Wa Ghaaelan Lataarafoo.  Enna Akramokom End Allah Atghaakom"  

Response

I just posted an essay in response to this

//iranian.com/main/blog/khodadad-rezakhan...