For an Islamic Democracy

Re: "Why your brother is blocked?"

Great OnlyIran or should I say "Yoda"! Now why not use your Jedi mind trick to influence Khamenei to do good. On the second thought he has no mind so it won't work. Try AN he does have a mind and a weak one.

Islamic Views

People Islamic views are not blocked on IC in any way. It is bashing other people that it. However it is somewhat arbitrary. Please note that some right leaning anti Islamic posters have also been blocked.

I have been friends with Freethough and defended him before. I am very familiar with the history of him being blocked. The reason is the attacks on Bahai not being pro Islam. Please note I am not defending the blocking just giving you the reason.

Bahai bashing is not well tolerated on IC and that is a fact. Now I do not bash them and don't like to see them bashed. But I do see more tolerance of bashing other religions. My two cents!

"Why your brother is blocked?"

I know don't.  I speak English do not. :-)

RB Jaan

I will be accused of brown nosing, but might as well say it in this nonsense blog: the likes of you are the reason I come here. I can learn from you. Now before I get fired I better get back to work. :)

Truthseeker aziz

Well, you know what blogs, and the responses to the them, are like. They often go through 180 degrees and jump from one subject to another like there is no tomorrow. Such is life, my friend. :)

RB Jaan

"we should all support Salman's right to express his preference for his Islamic Democracy"

Has anyone said he should not? To be honest I don't know how this blog has been turned from "Why has someone been blocked" to "Muslim views are suppressed on IC". This is a reason I dislike these nonsense blogs, they are a waste of time .  We might as well discuss what I'll have for dinner, SF's new avetar makes me hungry.

Responses

• Dear Siavash: Thank your for your response. Yes French are very touchy about their language. Much more so I must say than Iranians are. Maybe because they know their language did not win over English.
• Dear BoosBoos: Israel is just paying back Iran for Hamas and Hezbollah. Both are being stupid. There are some right wing Jews who are as bad as Islamists. In fact an Israeli politician said so on CSPAN one day.
• Over all Iran has fewer problems with Israel than Arabs. We have no territorial disputes. We are mostly doing proxy wars. I would do a trade: give up our proxies for theirs. Then make an alliance of necessity.

@ Siavash300 ... Jews & Arabs

Let me say at the start, I don't have anything against Jews.  I also don't believe that what you have written is entirely accurate.  My response are in bold.

----------------------------------------- 

* "jews never killed our brothers and sisters."

 The state of Israel sponsors PJAK and Jundallah; both of these groups have indiscriminately killed and maimed Iranian civilians.  Seymour Hersh writing in The New Yorker, plainly stated that the US military and the Israelis have armed, trained and equiped PJAK (and the group is supported by AIPAC - the main Jewish Lobby in the U.S.).  Der Spiegel reported last month that Israel was behind the mistaken assassination of an Iranian student who was picking up his child at kindergarten.

[ //www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2011/08/02/Der-Spiegel-Israel-killed-Iranian/UPI-58901312285124/ ] 

 *  "Jews never wanted to rename our Persian Gulf. Arabs did."

The ownership of Google is Jewish.  [See, "Google Renames the Persian Gulf" by P. McNamara.]  It's common knowledge that the U.S. Navy has also participated.

[//www.networkworld.com/community/node/25098 ] 

True and false.  Some Arabs from Saddam's Baathist party attempted to invade Iran with America's and the Saudi's assistance.   Syria (an Arab country) supported Iran during the Iran-Iraq war.  

[ //www.cfr.org/iran/syria-iran-mideast-conflic... ] 

* "Jews never wanted to impose judism on our nation. Arabs did."

I don't believe you mean that Arabs attempted to impose Judaism on Iran (though they are both Abrahamic faiths).  In the 7th century Arabs brutally brought Islam to Iran; that's true.  But that's not the only part of the story.  Iranians (like the Safavid dynasty) also did the same thing when Iran went from Sunni to Shia.  The same thing happened in 1979 when Iranians spilled into the streets in support of Khomeini.  And I am sure you will even find that some secular and /or atheist Iranians became Muslims on their own initiative.  

Yes VPK, Hitler was a poor metaphore

Mongols attacked Iran and their raid was so devastating. It was like an avalanche stormed from the east. The massacre of Iranians mostly happened in Eastern part of Iran around Birjand and Gonbad. It was said they even killed cats and dogs in those towns. Now, we never harbor any animacity against mongols even though they were more brutal than Arabs. Why? Because they never tried to impose any ideology upon Iranians. In fact, Holako became muslim and submit himself to Islam. The problem is that Arabs imposed their view of lives to other nations including Iran. This form of imposition continues to our modern times. Forceful Hejab is vivid example of that imposition.  Apostasy in Pakistan is another form of imposition . The most brutality of muslims took place in India against Hindus. Hindus never forget and forgive muslims for that up to these days.  Arab invasion to other territories were intimated with bloodshed, rape and slaverly. I used the metaphore of Hitler out of blue because Salman initiated about Europe history which I think I was not able to get to my point by using that metaphore. It was a poor analogy.

Now, since Salman comparing arabic language to European history, I must say French try to avoid speaking English. That is very evident once you travel to France. They all know English but they never promote that language and they pretend they don't understand it.  That is "national pride" which I try to illustrate it to Salman. French never forget their defeat of Brits over waterlu war. They prefer their own language over English even though English is official and international language. If you speak very few french words, French are happier to hear that than speaking fluent English.

Friend Siavosh

Salam alaikom - note no Arabic script :) 

I can see you are trying hard to prove your point and in doing so your are clutching to every piece of straw you can hang on to. None of the reasons that you have cites, as pointed out to you by friend VPK, hold water. I don't want to rebutt every single one of them as they are not really relevant or realistic to our discussion (e.g. naming oil fields of Persian gulf basin  or promoting Norooz in Iraq, etc.) but I suffice it to say that we have lived with Arabic language for 1400 years and it has become an insepearable part of of culture BUT it has gone through metamophosis that i no longer recognisable by Arabs. In other words we havs Persianised Arabic enteries. Besides, it is the language of the faith of our glorious Aryan race! You don't seem to be prepared to lay the blame on our Aryan Persians who embraced the new faith together with its language my friend.  As Naser Khosrw says:

"gofta ze ke naalin ke az maast ke bar maast"

OK friend? 

For an Islamic democracy

Siavash Jan

I am normally in agreement with you; but just want to be fair.

Hitler did try to annex pretty much the whole Europe. And he did try to impose his ideology on anyone who he could get his hands on. If Germans had won any territory they controlled would have their ideology. Not to mention cleansed of the other races. 

We Iranians were one of his favorite so we would have likely been alright. In fact our culture would have probably been elevated above Islam. Jews or at least non Iranian Jews would not have fared so well.

I just want to be accurate that they had every intention of imposing their ways. 

Anyway what is past is done. We should not live in the past but learn from it. 

I have no problem having trade relations with either Arabs or Israel. Just as long as we put our interests first. And bargain hard to get the best deals.

We are progressing Salman

Ba Doorood, 

"I have changed my avater, then I promised to use less Arabic and now dropping my trade-mark Brother and Sister addressing style. " Salman farsi

That is good to hear. That is great progress in short period of time. We are all Iranians and fight for our country and our culture. We all have the same goal which is liberation of our country from bunch of stinky Islamic rag heads.

"Have the Brits and Americans banned buying German and Japanese cars and other product because of what Germans have done to them some 60 years ago?" Salman Farsi

No, they haven't and at the same time, Germans never claimed to have part of U.K or U.S  as their territory. But Arabs have such an intention about Iran. Moamareh is vivid example?  German never wanted to impose idea of Hitler to Americans or Brits, but Arabs imposed their idea to Iran and other countries they invaded throughout history. Aposthy is common practice among Islamic countries.

"We shouldn't hate Arabs and their language for the events of 1400 years ago while the civlised world around us are prepared to forgive the events of 60 odd years ago. " Salman Farsi

Yes, We shouldn't, Tell this to those families whose their love ones were killed by arabs. Can I go to Arab sites and promotes Norooz and try to call some oil field area in Saudi in Persian names? we are living in civilized world, why I can't claim part of arab oil field as part of Iran ? for example Baghdad become part of Iran since we are all brothers and sisters?

Yes brother (excuse me, I mean, friend) as you're saying we shouldn't hate jews while the civilized world around us are prepared to forgive the event of 1948. Palestinians should have warmly welcomed those jews in new land. Those poor jews who suffered Nazi Germany and took refuge in Palestine shoudn't be hated. Yes, we shouldn't hate them or their language.  I agree with you. Our great king Koroush Kabir supported them, why not us.  But I see the other way around. There is a contradiction between what you're saying and what is in reality.    

ba sepas,

Siavash 

Funny

How you Iranians make me think of my own people.

Still fighting. Even if none gives a damn any more. 

//youtu.be/7sMD6W0qhYk

Now may I reply to a few FRIENDS?

Dear Hirre,

Thank you for your steadfasty defending REASON. I accpet that you may not agree with my thesis but by defending my right to speak, you are a true Votairian :"  I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. " 

Well, may be not to death :)) 

Dear R-B 

You too are a warrier for truth my "freind" Thank you. - I am putting friend in double quotes not because I don't mean it but because I want to remind the public of the death of "brothers" and "sisters".

Dear Tiger-Lily,

You are perfectly correct in understanding my line of thinking. All I want to say is that there is a different Islam than the inhumane and false version shown by the IRI for three decades. Many of our compatriots may not like it but it is the faith of the majority in our home country. By dismissing it, we are not wishing it away and it will not disappear just like that. You cannot irradicate it unless by enforcing another dictatorship. So please let it take its course and give Islamic democracy a chance.

Dear Siavash

Tell me something my dear brother (oops forgive me its too early for me to get used to my new style) I meant "freind". Have the Brits and Americans banned buying German and Japanese cars and other product because of what Germans have done to them some 60 years ago? Have the Japanese and Germans banned American and British products or teaching English in their schools because of the A-bomb and Dresden? 

Do you know that there are several hundred French and Germanic words in English language? Have they extracted these words becuase of the London V2 bombing in 1945 or the 100-Year war against the French?

I think, and excuse me for not finding a better word, what you are saying is bordering racism. Me too have lost friends and relatives when Saddam rockets were falling on Tehran and other cities but I don't hate Arabic because it was the langiage of Saddam or Iraqis.

Did yo know that Iranian scholars like Avecinna and Beiruni were repsonsible for putting order into Arabic grammar and language. We shouldn't hate Arabs and their language for the events of 1400 years ago while the civlised world around us are prepared to forgive the events of 60 odd years ago.

For an Islamic democracy

My dear "FRIENDS"

NO more Brothers or Sisters! Are you happy NOW?!

I think by the time I leave this blog my name is going to be changed to  SIMON FRASER!!! (please at least allow me to keep my initials).   OK? Or should I leave it to the best proposal? How about Saint Francis :) Actually I love this one: Saint Francis of Azizi ... LoL

But seriously, I don;t know what to say to my good friend (note, no longer brother) Pendar Nik who warned me against appeasing the populace for popularity (one of the comments after I changed my avatar).

So far, I have changed my avater, then I promised to use less Arabic and now dropping my trade-mark Brother and Sister addressing style. What next?  

For an Islamic democracy

Truthseeker jaan

Whatever one's view of Islam or Islamic countries, if we believe in freedom of expression, then we should all support Salman's right to express his preference for his Islamic Democracy. He is every bit as entitled as to his view as we are to ours and we should be accommodating to all kinds of views.

As regards to his calling everyone brother and sister, aziz take it in your stride, it's no biggie. and I honestly don't think he means it in any derogatory way. 

Truthseeker

Secular, that's the way to go !

The rest is personal, not my cuppa tea, not my place either. 

hirre

I agree with ALL your posts 100% on this blog, but that maybe because I read your posts, instead reading my own rubbish, illiterate gibberish agenda into them. ;) 

P.S. I shan't always come out in support of sense, in this case, stated by you or that of the very few others, because I can't be bothered anymore and when I do bother, I shall just update my own blog.  Less hassle.

P.S. II, Salman Farsi, just to clarify once more. As I understood it from your posts, you are promoting "Islamic democracy" , as an understanding that the majority of the population of Iran are Muslims and therefore it would be a good idea that if there were to be a new constitution/ regime change, whatever, that it would be without or with minimum bloodshed and representative?

Is that correct? 

hirre's hypothesis

"the world is starting to demonize muslims in general and that is why more and more are now trying to use the "anti-muslim" card. This will stop the religion from becoming more moderate as more and more muslims will become "religiously protective". hirre

Demonizing muslims and Islam could go 2 ways. As muslims become more "religiously protective"  demonizing muslims or rather Islam could also makes it faded away throughout the process of history, as Christianity did in northern Europe after Renaissance. People became less and less religion or it ends up losing their followers. We see many people convert to other relgion these days. Many ancient believe systems disappeared in a course of history.  

I've always said allow people free speech

Freedom of expression and religion. BUT what I do object to is:

1. his pretence of not knowing why his "brother" has been blocked, which supports my suspicions that such people are not as pure as they make out.

2. his promoting "Islamic Democracy", when we know what Islamic countries are like AND SO DOES HE. Again supports my suspicions that such people are not as pure as they make out. Why not go secular but still have freedom to practice your religion?  

3. general insicerety of calling others Brother and Sister when we know it is BS. A form of forced intimacy with people you do not know and worse type of lie/ tarof. And insisting on doing it when people have asked him to stop. 

Hirre is stating the obvious, and we know most Iranians are Muslims. Noone is forcing anyone out, but people are not fools either.

Re: 90% Iraninas Muslim

I have read and heard this many times from Muslims. But the only poll I know is the Zogby poll commissioned by PAIAA. That was of Iranian Americans. Only 40% said they were Muslims!

Now whenever I say this people say "they are Westernized". My response is that many Iranians are recent arrivals. They get on the plane; take off the hijab and order the wine! 

I have Pakistani and Egyptian friends who have been out just as long. But they remain practicing Muslims. Why is it that so many Iranians do not? I think it is because they were never really Muslims at heart. Repeating the same numbers does not make it true. A real Muslim will stay a Muslim no matter where they move to. A forced Muslim will give it up at the first opportunity. Many Iranians are forced Muslims and that is why the 90% number is very inaccurate.

hirre

You say: "...You see, it is convenient to go beyond logic and reason and assume a person is a backward fundamentalist on this website, especially where the "public goal" is to get rid of the IR..."

I agree! It IS convenient to make assumptions about a person being a backward fundamentalist and that is regrettable. On the other hand, sometimes it is also accurate! Sometimes you've gotta call a spade, a spade.

But please note that I'm not talking about Salman here. As I stated earlier, Salman comes across as a good-hearted person and does not deserve to be labelled as a backward fundamentalist. I think it's fair to say, some of us are sometimes a little too quick to verbally attack the religious members, and this should not happen, but keeping in mind what has taken place in Iran over the past 32 years in the name of Islam, I guess that is not altogether surprising.

Addressing your wider point, which you have repeated several times, namely that 90-90% of Iranians are Muslims and if we want to replace the IR with a free and democratic regime we need to win over the moderate Muslims, first let me say that while it is true 90% plus of Iranians are from Shia Islam background, that does not automatically mean that the 90% are all actually practicing Muslims. Many Iranian Muslims are no longer religious and indeed some are outright atheists/agnostics. Furthermore, many religious Iranians do not want to live under a religious based constitution/political system.

Having said that, I do agree that we need to win over the moderate Muslims and the way to do so is not by alienating them. You are 100% correct on that point, and will get no argument from me there.

Maybe I was too unclear...

1)
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran#Religion

"Religion in Iran is dominated by the Twelver Shia branch of Islam, which is the official state religion and to which about 90% to 95%[244][245][246] of Iranians belong."

2)
"Kill the muslims" comes from the sentence I wrote where many people, regardless secular or not express a generalized hate towards muslims and blaming them for everything... In this case there have been a lot of people on this forum, especially a year ago where they express themselves in a generalized way: "bomb the muslims in Iran", "hang the mullahs in Iran" and so on... Although it is easy to identify the initial actions which triggered those reactions, it must not be accepted, the same way as the crimes of the IR cannot be accepted.

3)
My message is that by promoting moderate muslims like SF we can moderate islam. By demonizing them, we are actually doing what Hitler did with the jews... After many years the result will be as have been with a lot of jewish people, and that is that when you critisize them, they use the anti-semitic card because of historical reasons. Unfortunately the world is starting to demonize muslims in general and that is why more and more are now trying to use the "anti-muslim" card. This will stop the religion from becoming more moderate as more and more muslims will become "religiously protective".

Re: "Los-Angeles-Persian-Aryan-Warrior-Vanguard guys"

I agree with Realit-Bites. This is a very poor generalization. First of all we do not know where many people live. Second: there is no reason to be ashamed of our heritage. Why are Muslims so afraid of Persian or Aryan?

Also what is wrong with asking people to use Persian or English on this site? I don't know Arabic in fact I don't know French either. Why not stick to a language we all understand. 

I have found some of the comments by "Hirre" very odd. For one claiming that Iran is a "Muslim Nation". Or his assertion that secularists are somehow out to "kill the Muslims". It sounds to me like a total misunderstanding of what "Secular" means.

RB

...and yet most comments has basically been about to generalize Salman F. as a fundamentalist...

You see, it is convenient to go beyond logic and reason and assume a person is a backward fundamentalist on this website, especially where the "public goal" is to get rid of the IR... But it is hard to actually think one step ahead and going for the plain facts... People have so much indirect hate stored that they forget that there is a person behind the computer, and that probably that person has a life not so much different from yours or mine...

Please NO Arabic, we are Iranians

"Jewish American on an all-American website wishes to cite something from the Torah, he/she is going to use certain Hebrew terms. How come this is an acceptable practice but when a muslim wants to use  the language of his faith he should be bashed?" Salman Farsi

Jews probably do it on their site, NOT on Iran.com. I have never seen it here, otherwise I would have jumped on it in a heart beat. NO difference between jews and arabs when it comes to our dear homeland IRAN. Forget both jews and arabs. Long live our Aryan Land Iran. It is NOT Turkish land, nor is it Arab land. It is ARYAN LAND.  Can I go to arab site and promote Norooz and Farsi language  and claim to rename part of Saudi Arabia in Farsi names? of course NOT. Arabs wouldn't let me do so. Why ? because they have "National pride". Why don't you learn from them ? Here is Iran.com NO Arabic, NO hebrow. Our Persian Gulf is Persian Gulf.

BTW,

A. jews never killed our brothers and sisters. Arabs did. They kiled more than a million of our brothers and sisters. They killed 8 of my best friends in early 80's during the war. Their faces are talking to me whenever comes to Arabs and Arabic language.

B. Jews never invaded to my homeland, Arabs did. They invaded several times. Last one was in 1980.

C. Jews never wanted to impose judism on our nation. Arabs did. They imposed Islam with Jazeh and bloodshed. We never forget that. We celebrate killing Omar by making dummy of Omar and burn it in effigy every year.We call it Eid-e-Omar Koshan. I am surprise you don't know it and claim to be Iranian. 

D. Jews never wanted to rename our Persian Gulf. Arabs did.

E. Jews never wanted to take over our country. Arabs did in Battle of Ghadesayeh and under Saddam. Read Khalid ib Walid story.

Hope you got the picture.

hirre

I think you are generalising and somewhat wide of the mark with your "Los-Angeles-Persian-Aryan-Warrior-Vanguard guys" label. Many people here are none of those convenient caricatures.

If you have a point to make, then make it. It'll be a lot more effective than just blurting out a bunch of stereotype tags.

Vildemose jan, it is not good

to wear anything on your sleeve, be it religion or intelligence. Some people act as if they are very high and mighty and defenders of women and human rights.  However, when no one is watching, they can be cruel to people. Unfortunately, many Iranians lived under IRI for years and learned horrible behaviors from living under that culture. Particularly if it happened in their formative years, they may never get rid of all the bad that they learned. What is the solution? Many of us left Iran years ago but Iran is not leaving us. we need to combat wrong behavior by Iranians wherever we see it. In many Iranians, there is a little dictator that every once in a while shows its ugly head. Ugly and unpleasant as it is, we must combat it. we must be feisty :))).

Good morning brothers & sisters

or in the case of brother Gorbeh Pashmaloo:

سلام علیکم و رحمه ا.. و برکاته

سبحکم الله بالخیر و العافیه اخوی 

کیف حالک؟

انت مسرور؟ دماغک چاق؟

Just a few brief answers to your comments:

Brother Siavash

I have no specific issue with Arabic things. The only reason that I use, on occasions, Arabic words in my posts or refer to Qur'anic verses is to be faithful to the original text (or sometimes out of humor as in my greetings above to brother Gorebeh Pashmaloo). As I have mentioned before, if a Jewish American on an all-American website wishes to cite something from the Torah, he/she is going to use certain Hebrew terms. How come this is an acceptable practice but when a muslim wants to use  the language of his faith he should be bashed? Having said that in the interest of peace and harmony I shall try to translate, as much as I can, the Arabic terms to English or Persian. After all I am here to promote Islamic Democracy and not Islamic Autocracy.

Brother Faramarz,

Please let us not play games brother, I am not good at games.

Brother Divaneh

No faith is S**t. I am not aware of the exchanges between Freethought and Roozbeh Gilani and Soosan Khanoom so I can't comment on those exchanges. Besides, personally I don't feel insulted if the whole of Iranian.com users fire insults at Salman Farsi as a pseudonym-ed user-ID. I know that there is a person behind each userID and that person has feelings too but as long as we are shielded by our (non real) userIDs and avatars, I can't see what all the fuss is about - as long as the exchanges are not dragged into sexual obsenities or disgustingly rude terms. I have been called worse than "olagh", which is one one of the animals I personally adore.

Sisters Yolanda and Vildemose,

I am not wearnig my faith on my sleeve, rather, my faith is being trampled under shoes of people. So I am here to save that poor faith sisters.

Brother Hirre,

You are a voice of reason, "logic", as is aptly shown by your avatar.

Finally, I can't recall who said something about fighting the IRI. I have been fighting the IRI, not politically, but Islamically since the inception of that tyranny.

I want to reclaim my faith. 

For an Islamic democracy

Sigh...

It's scary that as I person I probably identify myself more to Salman F. than to the Los-Angeles-Persian-Aryan-Warrior-Vanguard guys. But when it comes to some opinions, that's a different story...