TOUCHED

Thank you Nazi

I think i'd be speaking on behalf of everyone here when i say thank you for giving us all a great opportunity to have such a great round of discussion and get our opinions out in the open. I sure learned a lot by reading and thinking about the variety of ideas and viewpoints.

Dear All

I cannot thank you enough for participating in our discussion. You guys have brought so much heart, wisdom, humor, and passion into my humble story. I have learned so much from all of you. I hope you guys have enjoyed it as much as I have!

I thank you all very much and look forward to your active participation in the upcoming stories in the series. You guys are the best!

Ajab. never say never my

Ajab.

never say never my friend. Those days are not gone and whomever still thinks that way is not necessarily amish or still in love with their high school amor. It is not always black and white. For a guy who promotes experimenting and open mindedness , I find it strange that you are so intent on believing that those days are gone. It is a question of one's life style and a choice.
I know that women in iran are more progressive than before, but does it always mean that it brings better results?

I understand your point. But i don't believe for a second that by hurting more one would know what to do the next time around. people change and so do the circumstances and the lessons learned from previous times can not necessarily be applied to future one. No. sounds as if you are suggesting that people should be like machines and try one relationship after another, just 'cuz they are young and can take the pain?

It maybe true that they youngster can deal with the pain and get over things, but does it make sense for one to put themselves through an ordeal just because that is the case? I really think that you should give the older generation more credit. I have never seen older people really get hurt, and they always have ways to deal with it.

Thanks for the advice, and i will keep that in mind, when i decide to enter that market:) for now i like to keep things peaceful.

Have a lovely day.

Kourosh the old days of

Kourosh the old days of marrying the first guy that came along is gone!

No one is like that anymore. You may think there are "young" women out there who will settle with the first guy that comes along but they are either Amish or can't shake their high school puppy love.

Iranian young women outside Iran are definately like the rest of the world and the ones in Iran are not that far off.

But it is your choice. You can wait and try to find one in America or go to Iran and find one who is aftab mahtab nadide. There is no way in hell that I am going to be able to convince you otherwise.

My point was and still is that when you get scarred and hurt from a relationship you can deal with it easier when you are young and you will learn from it. Whereas if you are older and get hurt, it hurts more and you do not know how to deal with it. Not to mention you think you wasted time you didn't have when you are middle-aged. Just like anything else older people take longer to heal than younger people.

So the more you get hurt the more you'll learn how NOT to get hurt. Whether it is to change your habits or learn how to choose a better mate and what to look for.

If you are really in the market my sincere recommendation is to not look for labels such as "old fashioned". A woman can easily paint a crow and sell it to you as a canary! You want old fashioned? Seriously what could be easier than being "old" fashioned?! get it? everyone knows "old" but few know the "new"! By the way, "new" can mean what works from "old" and what doesn't.

Realize this.

ZAne Amrikai

I am surprised that when reading this you did not keep in mind that there is a remote chance that i may have been referring to a majority here and Not all americans or europeans! And I certainly did not mean to say they were raised to be that way. IT was that sort of life style that i don't like, I don't care how many people engage in doing it.

What you suggested was really far from reality and it is not even a practical thing. No men will marry such a girl and they eventually get tired of the teasing, and they could forget about all the money and the gold.
My comments should not really be a reason to get upset over, since at least we know and have seen that such a life style is a very common one even though is not practiced by everyone.

Thanks for the insight ajab rajab!

Experimenting on an hourly basis was not what i was getting at Ajab. You are making a great point here, But in reality and specially in our culture there are a million cases where women or men who married the first person who came along, and who had the fewest of the relationships in their lives, Even though at times they had problesm in their marriages or relationships, at the end came out victorious and they produced better results than those who get in and get out of relationships and remain even more puzzled and confused, as to what they really are looking for.
That is the western style and although i have no problems with that and i respect that, But i prefer the old way. what can i do, i am a super traditional kinda guy. That being said, i am not gonna just sit down and wait for it to happen, but I at some point i will draw the line.

You have such a great

You have such a great tendency to mix issues together and you constantly contradicting yourself. To make such an accusation that i stooped to name-calling is so out of place and erratic. What name-calling?

it could not have been any more clear than you stated previously, that you'd consider yourself an authorithy on the morality issue. Now you are changing everything around and denying that.
You also write with such a condescending tone, which of course could mislead someone to the fact that " you are so keen on your observations".
I am not disagreeing with the moral of the story.Sure. A woman should definitely be prepared to deal with the consequences and shed no tears." However, The following statement

" Men are emotional only when they are ready to breed and for that they will sign up for the 7 course meal."
Absolute Nonsense. I am sorry, but you just don't know what you are talking about and whoever had taught you that never had your best interest at heart and if that is what you learned based on your personal experiences, Then i am sorry, for you were given short shrift in being blessed to be associated with a good and decent man. The only thing that motivates a REAL man to be emotional is pure love, and not procreation. There are men out there who love unconditionally without having any expectations. Your view of men, and in them behaving simply as animals is an embarrasment.

I am not annoyed by you in anyway. I just don't agree with your style of thinking and arguing on that basis. That is all. I really don't need to explore anything about your comments, as i already spent enough time reading them. Perhaps, you should

Kourosh I think you are

Kourosh I think you are making too much of the word "experimenting". No one is suggesting experimenting on an hourly basis.

One can only go through so many relationships anyway, a handful. But it is good to go through "some" than none or very few or settle with the first guy that comes along.

You know "it" is not going to break down or get damaged! It is one of the few things that has a life time warranty ;-)

Humility

Mr. Kourosh,

Derakht har cheh barvartar oftadehtar.

I never claimed to have the market cornered on morality or lack there of. That appears to have been your extrapolation.

Moral of the story is; and I believe everyone on this blog is agreeing on that:

If a woman wants a 'relationship' then she needs to take it in her own stride - slow and easy and sign up for that 7 - course meal before it culminates to the dessert of sex.

If the woman wants 'just' dessert, then she should not shed tears because a meal is not being served afterwards.

As for men, well. like I said a few posts down, the XY chromosome does not operate in mating rituals the same way as the XX, simply because the XY does not have to bond in order to copulate. Men are emotional only when they are ready to breed and for that they will sign up for the 7 course meal. A man WILL not choose an easy target for breeding because of evolutionary reasons. Reason is: parenting is jolly hard work, mothering requires tremendous sacrifice beyond belief and it is not a job best suited for the fickle hearted. NO MAN and I mean NO SMART MAN would want to procreate with a woman who pulls her pants down before checking out his resume and his wish list. It suggests to him that others 'have been there, done that' with her and that she will tire of him soon and be off for the next kill.

It has less to do with morality than it does with propogating the species and assuring its well being.

Dressing up animal instincts in moral and traditoinal code is what religion is there for. Intellignet people do not need a moral code to conduct their lives in an evolutionary successful manner. They KNOW how to listen to their instinct and behave accordingly to secure the well-being of themselves and their progeny.

I have enjoyed this exchange with you. My grandmother always used to say that one learns a lesson from whoever one gets 'annoyed' with. It may interest you to explore why my comments would irk you to stoop to name-calling. Be that as it may, it is possibly an opportunity for your own self-growth and none of my business.

Peace

Kourosh joon, ummmm

"And i think it is great that our women have been raised to know the difference. Not like americans or europeans who do anything and sleep with anybody chalking it up as experimenting!"

Yikes!  How about if I say that Iranian girls have been raised with the thought that they should tease the man relentlessly but hold their legs together until the gold and money are in their hands and even after the wedding, act like they are doing him a favor if they let him touch her?  Do you think most Iranians would agree that this is a fair assessment of Iranian mentality/sexuality/  I have an idea it might raise some hackles even to READ that.  My point was that your comment did the same to those of us who ARE American.

And for your information, I know plenty of Iranians who do what you wrote, and plenty of fellow Americans who don't. 

Please consider my words.  Kheili mamnoonam. I don't typically think of you as someone who makes incendiary comments. 

Zan Amrikai

Great debate

Kourosh,
I've been following your debate with BTDTGT and I want to tell you, you're doing great.

I have one word for you: Arrogance.

Dear Lady.

That is the Most arrogant statement i have ever read in my life. Does "having seen it all" and offering that one and only precious notion and the fact that you have been there and done that and moved on, qualify you to issue a decree as to who has a bigger share of morality, based on their level of economic blessing?
For your information, Morality is a virtue that can be possessed by any human being in the world regardless of their wealth, level of education and the color of their skin. How you have not made that conclusion in all your years and the wisdom you have gathered based on you "being there and doing that" , It is beyond me, among other things.

Yes, Indeed " we assume and Judge" as has been eloquently demonstrated here by you.I will be extremely happy to agree to disagree with you.

Agree to disagree

Mr. Kourosh,

Let's agree to disagree.

Morality has most of its use for the middle class, sir. The lower classes can't afford it and the upper classes don't need it.

Like airplanes which circle the airport at different altitudes waiting to land, we humans are all afloat in the sky of life. The difference in outlook is the view and the view is dictated by the altitude and the altitude is dictated by the size of the floating object - plane and human alike.

A small plane cannot look up to see what's above it but the big jet can look down. So it is with humans and where they are in life. We all think we can see it all - until, by happenstance, we catch a glimpse of someone who has seen more and may treat us to some 'whacky' ideas which never crossed our mind. Our world, for each of us, is limited to what we know and have experienced and those experiences are dictated by our economic means and our intellect. We simply cannot see past that. Our egos compel us to refute an alien idea without thinking that just maybe, for a smidge of a second, the person offering the notion, at one time or other, may "Have been there and done that" and moved on. We assume and judge.

There is a lot more to human civilization than family values and keeping your legs crossed. Self worth may be defined by many facets of a person. It is not limited to a person's bedroom practices by any stretch. Indeed history tells us the opposite. In that regard, if I may borrow the Persian phrase, Iranians are 'andar khame yek kooche".

Peace

To been There done that,

Well, I am really glad that you are proud of what you have accomplished with your romatic life. Which at the same time makes me wonder why you considered yourself and many women your age as victims of cultural circumstances in iran!! What is up with that?
And just so you know, I am so happy that i am blessed with my practical and reasonable "economic means" that i have always been, since it keeps my choices and expectations just as reasonable and pratical.

I totally disagree with your take on men with money. True, that they are generally in a better position to call the shots, but as far as Looking for a breeder or looking for an easy target, i have said many times that it is the women that put themselves in a postion to look like easy targets. Any form of men-women sexual interaction is an absolute two way deal , regardless of how long it lasts, one hour or 10 years.
and there is NO WAY a man get his way if the woman won't let him. It is as much flesh-on-flesh as a woman would allowe it to be. If she was not overwhelmed by desire and fell for him. You open your legs and you'd better be prepared for the outcome.

By the way, if a man really thinks the way you are suggesting, he can't be as selective as you say if he thinks har che pish ayad khosh ayad. It the total opposite. that just means he will go with anyone and will not be only belooking for an easy target

I am amazed at you calling a bar or a club scene as a "correct setting" to satisfy one's needs, in a place full of strangers and possible weirdos, versus the work place, where the possibility of being able to find a trustworthy individual, or at least the the chances of trusting people is so much higher. And that has been the norm Since when?????
The most appropriate and logical way to find a potential partner is in a setting where you have been around someone long enough to trust them, not in a night club Please don't label it as a "pseudo-intellectual setting" something it is not. And i think it is great that our women have been raised to know the difference. Not like americans or europeans who do anything and sleep with anybody chalking it up as experimenting! Gimme a break.

one night stand can become more

i met my now girlfriend of five years through work about a year before we started dating, we were a bit younger and were both very attracted to one another and decided after one date to have sex. i never called emailed , text messaged etc... and i went on and engaged in many other "one night stands" . those one night stands meant nothing and still don't mean anything more than physical interaction with another human being. nonetheless as faith had it i ran into my current girlfriend at a a mall a few days before Christmas 2003 we talked and went on a date few days later we've been together ever since. i think most people forget one thing about their "frog" you have to meet the right "frog" at the right time in order for things to work. so don't worry about those one night stands they'll come and go.

How did this discussion get here

Mr. Kourosh,

Just as my handle states - Been There, Done that, Got the Handbag. ;)

I have already had my progeny with whom I am delighted. I have had my fair share of Iranian intellect or lack there of inside and outside of Iran and I am fairly familiar with the wide spectrum of moral and immoral values, family values, the cost, the pluses and the minuses. Here is the voice of experience my dear sir. You misread it as negativity because you have not experienced the same spectrum - quite possibly because you have not been blessed with the same economic means.

After all is said and done, this article is not about me or you. This article is about a woman who one night was thinking with what was between her legs and the next day decided to tie it to what was between her ears. The rest is conjecture.

There are plenty of options for men and women with money and looks, irrespective of age, race or religion. Men are clear which head they are thinking with, when they have a certain goal. Breeding goals call for looking for a breeder and they stay hands off until contract is signed off. Otherwise, they do not waste brain matter and go for any prey - the easier the better. So, 'har cheh peesh ayad, khosh ayad'.

Women on the other hand often don't know what they are looking for because the Iranian culture raises women to react rather than act. So, the middle aged woman finds herself hot and horny. Rather than go and find someone to satisfy that urge in the correct setting; e.g. a bar, a club, the meat market of humans, instead she 'reacts' to the advances of a man whom she has known for a year in a 'pseudo-intellectual' setting. Thus she subconsciously rationalizes her urges. She fools herself into thinking that it means anything other than flesh against flesh. The tears come the next day. And hence this article and the ensuing blog.

It is simple sir. We are all flesh and blood first -nowhere more so than in bed.

By the way there are plenty

By the way there are plenty of good Ahmadinejads el presidente in this website. They just don't want to admit it!

I am not one of them! Just like Ahmadinejad the President all the good ones are taken and I AM one of them! Not sure if I ever was but it doesn't matter now.

Question is if Goli is Innocent or Stupid!!

If anybody has seen the movie "The Companion"..thats what they say in the end. It is easy building castles in the air..the difficulty comes in putting foundations under them...that goes for Goli..

Guy is only wrong if he uttered any promises…its the girl...question is how could she have those presumptions that she had when she went to the flat ..at least we all know when we are not so sure of things...was she so sure of the guy...if she wasn't why she complains....and if she was sure why she was...and how could she be

and the guy can only be questioned if he has moral standards in tune with the social standards..and not if he operates his life with his own set of values....did she never make an attempt to probe his take on things in the long time that she had been meeting him....if she was not so free to talk of those things…then how could she become so free to go to flat....and then she complains...

one question is if pre-marital sex is allowed amongst Iranians?..if Goli is a free-thinker then she knows a lot about this world already…how could she then be taken in for a easy ride……its possible she is stuck in two worlds…

and what is very funny about the guy is..he never speaks anything...silent performer...and he leaves a mark with his ephemeral love that exhausts in a night..

Raast migeh

I agree, Ajab Rajab, the point IS to learn from it, not to blame.  My vitriole, if there was any, was more directed at  the comments from FJN who may also be ARG from the sound(s) of it,   It seemed the attitude was, "You're a big girl, you got it, he got it, deal with it!"   Yes, there is that to be had in all this, but seriously, my point was that when people get a consciousness raising, they stop being such assholes, even in situations like this.  Chris Rock and Mike Meyers aside, when you are talking about real people in real situations, there is something to be said for respecting another person enough to tell them the truth, gently, perhaps, but the truth.  And if the woman threatens to commit suicide then she DOES have some issues.  But still, I stand on the side of respectful truth.

My other comments about easy-to-enter vaginas and the rest of that paragraph were entirely sarcastic.  Alas!  Sarcasm is often lost--or totally misread--in writing.

I think the question starts

I think the question starts with Free Join Now and ends with Alpha Ring Game.

"Should" a man seduce or trick a woman? Is it even a trickery? When a woman shows interest in a man should the man "clearly" say that he is only looking for sex and nothing else?!

This reminds me of 2 items Chris Rock and Mike Meyers once said. During Monica's scandal Chris Rock told Matt Lauer that; do we want a President that dumb who gets a BJ and tells his wife the truth?!

And Mike Meyers had a skit on Saturday Night Live where he would ask his date if she "approves" the intercourse?! and when she said yes, he'd ask followup questions and eventually ask her to initial a piece of paper!

So the question is about what happens "before" and not "after". If a woman walks into someone's apartment and has sex or vice versa if he walks into her apartment and has sex they don't sign a contract! They just do it.

I don't think we should blame anyone in this particular story. Just learn from it.

Dear Universe...:-0

I'm on Page 248 of Savushun and the paragraph is as follows: 

"If only the world were in the hands of women, Zari thought.  Women give birth.  They are the creators, and they know the avlue of their creation, the value of endurance, patience, monotony, and being unable to do anything for oneself.  Perhaps becuase men have never been creators, they'll take any risk to create something (including chaos and confusion... sorry Simin Jaan... that was my own addition).  If the world were in the hands of women, how could there be wars?  If they take the blessing that you have away from you, what then?"

Cooincidence?  I think not!

Decaff?  Why bother at all if you're going to omit the only thing that gives you satisfaction (or the strength to keep going...lol)

Easy-to-enter vaginas? Since when? Where?

She plugged it up for a year before he got into her so called easy-to-enter vagina, but he probably has (had) several of them lined up for his future one-night stands, or they are (were) lined up for him for the taking. The real man behind this fictitious story has reached a celebrity status, so now some women sleep with him for the heck of it, but some of them CHOOSE to act confused later.

Women take charge of your own vaginas, and tongues, and under arms and whatever, and stop whining and blaming it on men. This supposedly fictitious wronged woman has lived in North America for many years but still she is being proclaimed to be wronged even though she was an active participant in what went on. Give me a break.

And yes, many women, and MEN say “I’m going to commit suicide" in situations like this, so the man had to consider that outcome too for ignoring her.

Mikham jeeq bezanam!

I just wrote two different comments and both times, I hit ENTER by mistake and both times the page just reloaded and zapped what I'd written.  JJ, was that a sign that my vagina/penis laced posts were too controversial to post?  ;^)  So anyway, now I want to SCREAM.

I will not rewrite all the mean things I had written about supposedly awesome penises controlled by brilliant men, nor will I say all the sarcastic things I was going to say about easy-to-enter vaginas controlled by stupid women...since women must be stupid and men brilliant if the latter gets "what he wants" while she only wants to commit suicide the next day.

Yes, ok so my tongue is in my cheek. I can take it out if anyone wants to try it; it is really yummy.  But if you are expecting a wedding proposal tomorrow, you'd better go kiss the mirror instead. We women not only want to control our vaginas, and your penises, FJN, we want to control the UNIVERSE!

Right, girls?  Hmmm...maybe decaf WOULD be a good idea after all....

ZA

Yeah, go ahead and blame it on the man

Women are in charge of their own vaginas as much as men are in charge of their penises, meaning if the woman didn’t want to give it away she shouldn’t have done so to begin with, instead of crying about it later. Is it honestly in her part that she participated all along without hearing him say “I like you”, or “I love you” ,or “I want to have a relationship with you“, or “I don’t want to have a relationship with you afterwards”, yet she went along with it. Was she a mind reader that thought he’ll have a relationship with her afterwards, but in that occasion she misread his mind by mistake? He didn’t tell, she didn’t ask. He got what he wanted, she didn’t. It’s as simple as that. I’m sure she’ll ask next time if she wants to or go on pretending that she misread someone else’s mind.

If the man is guilty of ignoring the stupid elephant in the room after the fact, she is guilty of ignoring it before the fact. If the man said I don’t like bald women but I’m going to have sex with you anyway, is that honesty in his part? Which part of it is honesty? That he is horny and wants to have sex, or he has all of sudden become mature enough not to hold women’s baldness against them, or is it that there are things better not said sometimes even though they are factual. And, why is it that the man is presumed to be guilty as if he maliciously planned to screw her and then ignore her afterwards. Maybe the next day, after he, and she, were no longer horny, or drunk, he decided the best option to deal with the situation was to ignore the whole thing, ignore the stupid elephant.
Let’s see his other options would have been:
-to continue having an unwanted sexual relationship with her
-to pretend that he loved her
-to lie to her about his excuses why he didn’t want to have anything to do with her
-to be nice to her but reject her
-to be honest with her and say that afterwards he came to the conclusion that he don’t like bald women
-to leave town
-to face her squarely and tell her I don’t want to be with you, and hear her say I’m going to commit suicide, as many women, and men, do in these situations.
.
.
.
-or just ignore everything as nothing happened

Well he got what he wanted, and he picked the option he wanted. Take charge of your vaginas and stop blaming men who take control of it for you when they want to.

Kourosh Jaan

You are selling your secrets much much too cheaply!! Wait, or did I mean that I doubt women will pay 2.99 for that which they could deduce with a little common sense...LOL. Irregardless, husband thinks it's not to ANYONE'S advantage for us to know how your minds work...:-0 Nazy... yes, you can imagine MY surprise when I ran into Zan Amrikai! If only my Farsi was that good, there wouldn't be all this confusion...:-)

Zan Amrikai Jan!

How wonderful to see you again! I am delighted you decided to register. I have missed you very much. I hope life is treating you well.

Thank you so much for your kind and as usual thoughtful and honest comment. It's interesting that of all the people who wrote comments on this post, you are the only one who held the man responsible, but also explained the level and nature of that responsibility. I mean you didn't call him a pig, but you did expect a level of decency from him which most people didn't.

I loved the Craig's List ad! Ha Ha Ha! Can you imagine the responses she might get?!! Az khandeh mordam!!!

For a while when American Wife had first emerged, I thought she was you; then I realized she was American Wife and not you! I am glad you are here and that you and AW are exchanging comments on the site, finally straightening this out! Please stay this time and participate in the future discussions in these series. Unfortunately these series are all about heartbreaks, but a lively and humor-filled dialogue is what I'm aiming for here.

Be good azizam!

Piping Up and Jumping In

Nazy,

Thanks for writing the story; it was obvious to me that it wasn't "just" fiction.  This is a common tale, regardless of nationality. 

I disagree with the comments about "if she were wise, blah blah blah" she wouldn't have slept with him on the first date.  Come ON.  First of all, they had known each other a LONG time.  What? She has to play some stupid game like she is a twenty year old who doesn't want the man to know she has a vibrant sexuality? Give me a break. Secondly, the guy, if he was such a good guy, should have been man enough to tell her up front, "Golijoon, goosh bedeh, you are a good friend and I would like to sleep with you, but I am not interested in a "relationship" with you."  As if a woman can't handle that honesty?!  I tell you she CAN.  And she can still respect the guy instead of having to walk around ignoring the stupid elephant in the room next time she sees Mr. Self Important "nice guy the next day without any mention of what happened between them"--what, he has amnesia?  What, he has a majorly compartmentalized self?! 

Nazy, your conversation with your sister made me think of this hilarious post I saw on best of craigslist the other day:

//www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/835057632.html

I hope you all get a good laugh out of that one!  Some of the stuff on the "best of" is so funny, really.

 Anyway, I know I haven't posted to you in a long time, Nazy.  Glad to hear you are still doing such a good job writing.  You are always so enjoyable to read.

Qorbanet!

Zan Amrikai

Here is Mohammad Reza Golzar

Here is Mohammad Reza Golzar being harrassed by his fans in the streets of Tehran next to his convertible BMW. At aound 1:04 it becomes funny ;-)

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=A21BRLf5ymw

Have your credit card ready:)

American wife.

Ha. ha. You really think that way? that was the "free trial" part of the deal. We will be glad to show you what we REALLY think for only 2.99 a minute. We take debit cards as well:)

Ready? set? let's go.

I know at least one !

His name is Ajab Rajab :O) ....just kidding, don't get it bad please