FLAG

The whole thing was billed

The whole thing was billed as UNITED FOR IRAN?? RIGHT??

It did not mention only those who agree with our ideology need to be united with us. Right?

Ari Siletz

The question is not if you think something or some action is needed or not for others to express themselves as they see it appropriate. You certainly have very interesting way of interpreting different words or statements which does not neccessarily mean they are correct as I explained earlier but I personally have nothing against it. About my "suspicion" of what "others" do, I must say, I am beyond suspicion like many other Iranians whose eyes are not closed to solid facts and evidences and of course their adamant advocacy of a position like yours about presence of sun&lion flag through misinterpretation of things like UDHR and other different words and statements was mentioned for you and others just to see the similarities. As far as your concerns about presence of the sun&lion flag resulting in inaccurate report by media about any of Iranian protest, I challenge you to bring a single media report that indicates any of recent Iranian protests, other than being against fraud in the election and bloody suppression of people, had anything to do with flag or those who displayed it. I must tell you that I know exactly why some of the people among green movement protesters did not want to see the flag around themselves (because I knew some of them and I stood on their side and spoke to them in straight forward manner) but whatever you have said so far has nothing to do with that. And as far as "least common denominator", it is not a colour, it is the demands which are chanted on the streets of Tehran and other Iranian cities.

sohrab_ferdows

Moving on to issues we have not resolved yet, I wish to understand why your suspicions about what others (NIAC, etc) are doing have any bearing on this much simpler question: In a demonstration being covered by the mass media, a person carrying a large symbol "A" with a personal meaning to him, wants to use some of the common image space (ie. outside his personal space)  to convey a personal message possibly at odds with the personal views of others and beyond the "least common denominator" purpose of the gathering. If he did as he wished, would he be within his article 19 UDHR rights?       

Dear Ari Siletz

It has happened many times that during protest events, some non-Iranian people approached the protesters and asked questions about who they were and what the protest was for while protesters had multiple national Iranian flags raised around them or held in their hands. Even though I did not think that I needed to bring up this little example to show how most people are ignorant regarding the flags of other nations (no matter how big or how small they are), I just mentioned it to show you how most people's view about flags of any kind is different than yours who think a flag is such a big hindrance while many don't even see it at all. Having said that, my issue is not with the people who do not want to hold the lion and sun flag in their hands but with those who can not tolerate "others" who hold that flag in "their own" hands. If you can not tolerate others for having a flag in their hands which in your view has no cultural or historical value, then how can you claim to believe in "freedom of expression"? Those who hold the lion & sun flag in their hands do not even ask you to accept it, they at least have the honesty to show their position regarding Islamic Republic with their flag. It is not a hidden agenda.

On the other side, some people have tried to manipulate the independence of green movement in direction of support and enhancing the influence for a particular group of Iranians outside the country which are known to work for protection and preservation of Islamic Republic system, by creating unjustified wave of propaganda against the historical Iranian national flag and the group who hold it dear. Among them are well known elements related to NIAC which have entered into the business of organizing huge and lavish protest events for "Green Movement", that is out of character for this group, to display the extent of its influence in Iranian community and buy more bargaining power for itself in US Congress in the interest of the economic mafia which has been holding its grip on the national wealth of Iranians for a few decades. Green Movement, in my view and view of many others, has provided a great opportunity for Iranians to express their true feelings about a suppressive system which based its survival on brutal treatment and oppression of any voice of opposition.

Even if we accept that flag of lion and the sun represents monarchy and those who support it (which is absolute nonsense), I find it totally ridiculous to exclude a group of Iranian people, who share our cause, for expressing their position openly by holding that flag and, at the same time claim that we stand for human rights and freedom of expression!

FYI:Reza Pahlavi regarding the Sun & Lion Flag and Green Banner

Message of Reza Pahlavi on The Unity of Our Nation’s Treasures:

//www.rezapahlavi.org/press/?english&id=393

Monday, August 3rd, 2009

Desiring freedom, seeking justice, being kind to one another, and refusing to bow to oppression have always been among the most notable qualities of Iranian civilization. Today’s movement for freedom, for which you have adopted the green vitality and happiness of our national spirit as a symbol, constitutes, despite its distinctiveness, yet another continuation of the brightest moments in our nation’s history.

Iranians,

Today, our nation faces one of the most trying times in its history. United, through tolerance and non-violence, we persist in our struggle for sovereignty and separation of church and state. Together, we entered a challenging historic era, but I have no doubt that with our collective spirit and mind, we will come out triumphant, our heads held higher than ever before.

My dear compatriots,

The green movement for democracy belongs to each and every freedom seeking Iranian. It transcends all political preferences and religious beliefs, as well as any other dividing lines or characteristics. This movement has sprouted and blossomed, as have all of our nation’s treasures, such as our tricolor lion and sun flag and our “marz e por gohar” hymn, from the drops of sweat of our nation’s many patriots.

Just as Iran’s historic lion and sun flag does not represent any particular ideology or system, but belongs to all Iranians, and just as “marz e por gohar,” our glorious national hymn, does not belong to any particular party or group, but comes from the soul of our nation, today’s green movement for freedom is the common denominator of all Iranians, without limit and without exception.

My compatriots,

It is my firm belief that the tricolor lion and sun flag, the hymn “marz e por gohar,” and the beautiful, celebrated green movement can be the inseparable sides of a united national triangle. Let us never forget that we are all one and that the key to our success is our unity.

We will rebuild Iran together.

May God be with Iran.

Reza Pahlavi

From:

//nanazola2.blogspot.com/
جنبش سبز و خفقان آدميت

هادی خرسندی

"تن آدمی شريف است به جان آدميت"
نه همان نوار سبز است نشان آدميت

اگر آدمی به رنگ است و لباس و کله‌ی گچ
چه ميان مانکن ها و ميان آدميت

نه به پرچمی بده گير و نه رنگ را جدا کن
و بدان که رنگرنگست روان آدميت

تو نگو در اين شرايط همگان شوند يکسان
که به قالبی نگنجد همگان آدميت

تو که پشت هم بگوئی سخن از دموکراسی
مگذار چيره گردد خفقان آدميت

همه يکصدا وليکن مشو غافل از حقيقت
که هزار لهجه باشد به زبان آدميت

نه بگير خرده بر آن که به خود نبسته سبزی
نه هر آنکه بسته بنشان سر خوان آدميت

تو نه مبصر کلاسی و نه ناظم دبستان
تو نه ژاندارم سبزی نه آجان آدميت

چه خوشست سبز بودن به ميان جمع و جنبش
که گشاده سبزه‌زاريست جهان آدميت

چو نشان سبز بينی به ميان آستينی
نه يقين کنی همانست نشان آدميت

چه بسا که بدنهادی به لباس سبز اندر
نه که آدمش بگيری به گمان آدميت

کاتالوگ نگير در کف که بيابی آدمی را
چه خوشست گر بگيری پی‌ ِ آن آدميت

من تصمیم گرفتم که تغییر کوچکی برای نام خودمان بدهم و بگذارم
رفرمیست ها آزاد باشند هر کار میخواهند بکنند زیرا اکنون همه با
هم هستیم

من تصمیم گرفتم که نام جنبش سبز مردم ایران را به جنبش سبز
( همه ) مردم ایران تغییر دهم

چرا ؟

زیرا همه ما مردم رفرمیست نیستیم ولی همه رفرمیست ها هم
با همه مردم هستند !

  Wake up : NO Way

Wake up : NO Way back:

//iranian.com/main/blog/alexarjomand/no-way-back

benross: thank you. They

benross: thank you. They truly think Iranian ex-pats are all morons and can't see right through this kind of shenanigans.

The issue is not a big flag

The issue is not a big flag or small flag. Anything that may inconvenience some other people usually can be resolved by courtesy and common sense. It is interesting that Ari Siletz -very patronizing- compares the civility of Iranian gatherings with violence between pro choice and pro life supporters. That's quite saying how he sees the issue.

There is no opposite sides of an issue. There are Iranians fighting for their freedom, some within the regime framework some outside of it. We support ALL of them. We ALL come together for support for ANY Iranian fighting for freedom. But like Iranians inside the country, we also have different perspectives about the outcome. They can not show it clearly inside, we can. And we must.

In Iran, those who shout 'Iranian Republic' are not a segregated bunch from those who don't. Perhaps more brave, but not different.

What happens outside the country has nothing to do with what Iranians inside the country are going through. Here, there is a deliberate segregation effort based on very very unhealthy mind set. Almost purposely devious. This, has nothing to do with big flag or small flag, common courtesy or lack of it, which would be otherwise resolved or forgotten in a second.

Insulting our intelligence is not really helping this debate. 

..............

where I was born and lived for a long time my flag was red,white,green with sun and lion and I never had any affiliation with or against to the king & queen; that idenfied me and my nationality ,I never lived in a country or carried their passport that has .... symbol THATS NOT MY NAME (SONG BY TING TANG)

this last uprising from inside Iran believe to be in two part inside one to count their votes and other want the islamic regime to leave and both are crushed by IRI.

From here the GREEN is color of $money$,and free arguments,and returning to our cozy home and just.....

payande Iran

down with IRI and its supporters.    Maziar

Sohrab_Ferdows

For example the woman in this photograph by Azadeh Azad, is exercising proper freedom of speech in this context. Her Shir O Khorsid flag is attached to a personal item, reflecting her personal political leanings. In this photo (also by Azad), however the flag seems to have created controversy because it is large enough to cover several people, giving the impression that the Greens in the vicinity of the flag sympathize with the view the flag represents-- to them. Since they may not agree with you as to what the flag represents, the message they wish to convey by their presence at the demonstration is being altererd by the large-flag holder. In this way the Green expression is being hindered and interfered with. The "pushing" away of Shir O Khorshid supporters has to do with resentment of this infringement.

It is to the credit of Iranians on both sides of the issue that the dispute has been mild. As you know, in the US, the appearence of a pro-choice banner holder in the middle of a pro-life crowd can get much more physical. And the hapless pro-choicer will not get a chance to explain that the two groups are in some sense united because being pro-choice is just another way of respecting life.

I hope this explanation and analogy covers most of your questions.

As for the presence of the US flag, similar reasoning ironically leads to a single, very large, all-encompassing flag being more appropriate to a Green gathering. For example, at the Civic Center in San-Francisco--where a Green demonstration was held--there is always a large US flag (and a state flag) dominating the entire Civic Center landscape. The Eiffel tower in the Paris demonstration served the same purpose of letting our countrymen in Iran know which country the support comes from, and how wonderful it is to enjoy freedom of expression in these democracies. 

Dear Mr. Siletz

Your argument is based on a twisted interpretation of UHRD article and has no truth to it. What justification do you have to offer to support your version of interpretation regarding "interference"? According to standard dictionary, definition of "intereference" is: "the act of hindering or obstructing or impeding". I am very interested to see how do you justify pushing people, who come to show their SUPPORT (please pay attention, it is support and not hindering) of your action, away from yourself when you want to put on a show of quest for human rights? Who do you want the human rights for? Is human rights only about reversing the result of a fraudualent election? Is it just about freeing a few prisoners who brand themselves as reformists in the clan of Islamic republic and have been imprisoned in a family feud which has gone badly out of control? Your arbitrary interpretation of the image which accompanied the article and extending it to the actions of those whom in your belief committed "interference" in the actions of those protesters and so called activists is very telling by itself about how biased your views are in this regard. For your information and others, I have to say that, the picture that I supplied with the article which showed a group of bikers in Ottawa with Persian words for human rights on their chest (in green), was not published for some reason and instead, iranian.com editors decided to use the image that you see, which is fine in my view.

My question is: how can welcoming a group who claim to support human rights and want to show it by peddling a great distance, with any kind of symbol, can be interpreted as "hindering or obstructing" their actions? And how can we consider such a group who pretend to support human rights as genuine if they do not even share their letter to request human rights from authorities of Islamic regime with others who went there to welcome them? How can Sun and Lion flag in the hands of a "few", can be considered "hindering" or "obstructing" the humanitarian actions of those who have been probably confused by Islamic Republic propaganda about their own national symbol? Would you object if some Iranians would bring the flag od USA or another nation in a welcoming event with them and would that be an interference or support?

Dear friend, fighting for values like freedom, human rights and democracy takes courage, honesty and selflessness. You can not claim to be fighting for such values while justifying compromise of same values for satisfying certain elements in a system which is butchering people on the streets and looting the nation's wealth by truck loads! The words of Mr. Mousavi today, about the slogan of "esteghlal, azadi, jomhuriye eslami" (independence, freedom, Islamic Republic) which is in contradiction with the slogan of people who chanted "esteghlal, azadi, johuriye irani" (independence, freedom, Iranian Republic) on the streets very recently, is a clear indication that demands of Iranian people goes beyond what leaders of so called "Green Movement" stand for. If anything makes this national movement to fail in achieving its democratic goals, it will be nothing other than incompetence and lack of courage of those who have tried to capitalize on people's blood in a power struggle which Iranian people have no interest in. Flag of Lion and Sun is not the enemy. The enemy is incompetence, dishonesty and lack of courage of a bunch of pretenders whose undestanding of struggle for freedom, human rights and democracy does not go beyond words.

What you believe

is your affair. I said you implied that they are dishonest whether you realised it or not. That is what is silly about your attempt to twist things. If you take the time to think about what you say before you rush to wave article 19 around then perhaps you would have my respect for your argument. As it is you don't.  

You make further assumptions about me which are not correct so keep your advice to yourself.

Mr. Fozolie

Here comes the lawyer!

So, according to this logic by extension, green protesters have no right to demonstrate because based on the declaration of all constitutional authorities of the Islamic regime, Moosavi was legally defeated!

Honesty is a good think. Keep your focus on it. You may get somewhere.

Fozolie, wrapping up

Yes and I understood very well what you are after

form the beginning and your use of the op/ed picture by way of an example. What you don't seem to realise is that you are implying the Green Movement to be dishonest (which I don't believe it is).

Mr. Fozolie

Fozolie, bring matters to a head

I understand that very well

And you are implying he Green Movement as the injured party. What I observerd it was the other way round which was to make the protests exclusively Green. My other comment was a general note to make people aware of what the aims of the leaders of the Green Movement are.   

Mr. Fozolie

Fozolie, you bring honesty to the debate

This is an honest admission that the Shir O Khorshid flag carriers feel at odds with the Greens because they believe the Greens have a political purpose other than that of the flag carriers. Since everyone--including someone you disagree with or suspect of intolerance--has an article 19 right to free speech, a flag confusing his/her  message, distasteful as it may be to you, is a violation of his/her democratic rights.

The Intolerance is very telling

The whole Green Movement outside is quite well orgnaised from inside Iran. There was the same problem and upsets during demonstrations in London as reported elsewhere (they made very effective use of the Britsh Police under the guise of keeping order and segregate the Green part from the rest). At first the arguments for unity and not to give regime an excuse because of a flag was plausible. However we have moved beyond that. The issue of what the people behind the Green movement want and what the rest of Iranians want will have to come to a head.

After talking to the organisers of the Green Movement in London it became clear that some had come from Iran specifically to organize protests and their aim is as stated by their leaders to get the ISLAMIC Republic project back on track.  They are neither insterested or concerned about tolerating anything outside that framework.

Mr. Fozolie

Photographic rebuttal

The photo conveys the idea that the free speech message of the sign carriers is being censored by the flag carrier through interference. 

Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says:

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. 

The flag carriers action interferes with the information and ideas the demonstrators are trying to convey, and therefore violates the article 19 rights of the Green demonstrators, despite the false appearence that he is innocently exercising his own freedom of speech.

As another example of a false and un-democratic appeal to article 19, consider the guys who sit behind you in the theater, who have already seen the movie and keep talking out loud about what is going to happen next in the movie. They cannot reasonably quote article 19 to defend their behavior. 

این نیز بگذرد

آنها که پرچم چنگال مرگ نشان را پرچم ایران می‌دانند نمی‌خواهند هیچ چیزی مدرکی بر آن باشد که اعتراضاتشان برای تغییر نظام است. این از سوی موسوی و خاتمی و کروبی و هوادارانشان قابل درک است. چه به لحاظ اعتقادات باطنی و چه به لحاظ مصلحت مبارزه‌ای که پیگیری می‌کنند. در داخل ایران، کسانی که کل نظام را هدف قرار داده‌اند نیز از اعلام علنی و عرضهٔ شواهد و مدارک عینی چون برافراشتن پرچم واقعی ایران خودداری می‌کنند. این نیز کاملاً قابل درک است. وقت آن هنوز فرا نرسیده است .گو اینکه گهگاه نشانه‌هایی از آن را بر جای می‌گذارند.

اما برای ایرانیان خارج از کشور، پنهان شدن پشت پرچم چنگال مرگ نشان، اجباری از ملازمات مبارزه نیست. این اختیاری است همانطور که برافراشتن پرچم ایران اختیاری است. واکنش سرد و گهگاه خصمانهٔ برخی از ایرانیان خارج از کشور در مواجهه با پرچم ایران، فراسوی تهی کردن محتوای شعارهای آزادی خواهانهٔ آنان، حکایت از این واقعیت دارد که خوب می‌دانند که حق با آنها نیست.

تمام این واکنش‌های عجولانه و خصمانه از این روست که ما - به عنوان یک جامعه - حاضر نیستیم که با خطا و گناه تاریخی خود در حمایت از انقلاب اسلامی بدون دورویی و تزویر رودررو شویم. این است که هر مظهری که یادآور گناه تاریخی‌مان باشد ما را خشمگین می‌سازد. اما در عین حال این را نیز می‌دانیم که آنچه خواستهٔ واقعی ماست، پایان دادن به این نظام و بازگشت به تجدد و دموکراسی است. می‌دانیم که با هزار ترفند هم توجیهاتی از این قبیل که «انقلاب اسلامی تا فلان جایش خوب بود و از بهمان جایش خراب شد» به هیچ جایی نمی‌رسد. این است که رفته رفته در یک پویش درونی، روح خود را آزاد خواهیم کرد وبه همراهش، خشم از پرچم ایران را. پرچمی که یادآور گناهمان است. با پاکسازی روح، این خشم نیز از میان خواهد رفت. سلطنت‌طلبان دیرینه گمان نکنند که با برافراشتن پرچم ایران هنری کرده‌اند. آنها هیچگاه خود را در این «احساس گناه تاریخی» سهیم نمی‌دانستند، گو اینکه به گونه‌ای دیگر باید بدانند. برافراشتن پرچم ایران باید نمادی از تزکیهٔ نفس کل ملت باشد.

اگرچه خارج از موضوع است ولی جسارتاً نکته‌ای را اضافه کنم که به طرفین دعوا مربوط می‌شود. تشدید آنتاگونیسم با طرفداران احمدی‌نژاد به مصلحت ایران نیست. دیروز یکی از طرفداران او به خبرنگار بی‌بی‌سی اعتراض می‌کرد که چرا نظر شخصی خود را در برنامهٔ «نوبت شما» داخل کرده است و با مقایسهٔ عکس‌های ابطحی قبل و بعد از زندانی شدن، نتیجه گیری کرده است. اندیشهٔ این گروه از ایرانیان چنان منجمد شده است که هیچ منطق «آفتاب آمد دلیل آفتاب» در آن نفوذ نمی‌کند. با آنان باید به گونه‌ای دیگر گفتگو کرد. باید از آنها خواست که فرض بگیرند فاجعه‌بار ترین چیزهایی که معتقدند در پی رفتار مخالفان بر ایران واقع خواهد شد، واقع شده است. آزادی کامل عقیده و بیان تحکیم شده است و هر کسی بدون هیچ محدودیتی کاندیدای انتخاباتی می‌شود و به رأی مردم به مجلس می‌رود. آنگاه توضیح بدهند که این عاقبت «فاجعه‌بار» چه تأثیری در معتقدات شخصی آنها خواهد داشت و چه کسی به اعتقادات شخصی آنان و مردمی که به خیالشان سخنگوی آنها هستند تعرض خواهد کرد. البته ادامهٔ دیالوگ کَر نیز باید ادامه یابد هرچند که «آفتاب آمد دلیل آفتاب» به سنگ زمخت میراث افکار حزب توده برخورد خواهد کرد.

شما دوست عزیز، پرچم خود را برافراشته نگه دار. ما سرانجام حق را درخواهیم یافت.

این نیز بگذرد.

Thank you!

Excellent point!

Azarin