حقوق بشر و آزادی بیان انحصار گرایان

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حقوق بشر و آزادی بیان انحصار گرایان
by Sohrab_Ferdows
01-Aug-2009
 

چهار سال پیش که آقای محمود احمدی نژاد برای اولین بار و در نتیجه تحریم گسترده انتخابات رئیس جمهوری بوسیله اکثریت مردم ایران و بکمک تقلبات فراوان در انتخابات بکرسی ریاست جمهوری دست یافت چنین بنظر میرسید که مردم، بعد از دو دوره از رئیس جمهوری آقای خاتمی، آخرین امیدهای خود را برای هر گونه اصلاحات در سیستمی که بنمایندگی از خدا بر آنان حکم میراند از دست داده اند. چهار سال حکومت سرشار از تحقیر و سرکوب ملی آقای احمدی نژاد نشان داد که بن بست جمهوری اسلامی با تحریم انتخابات در ایران حل شدنی نیست و همین امر باعث شد که مردم به ندای تحریم مجدد انتخابات از سوی اپوزوسیون بدون برنامه در خرداد 1388 پاسخ مثبتی ندادند و بصورتی کم سابقه در انتخابات شرکت کردند تا بلکه با روی کار آوردن یکی از افراد باصطلاح میانه رو نظام حد اقل از برخورهای تحقیر آمیز و سرکوبگرانه رژیم با خود بکاهند. این رویا با تقلب بی محابا و گسترده دولت اسلامی که هیچگاه خود را پاسخگوی مردم نمیداند بکلی بر باد رفت و رهبر حکومت اسلامی در میان حیرت گروه باصطلاح میانه رو و مردمی که خود را در مقابل اینهمه بی شرمی ناتوان میدیدند آقای احمدی نژاد را برنده انتخابات اعلام کرد.

واکنش گروه میانه رو نظام که از طرف گروه حاکم در مناظرههای انتخاباتی بطور آشکار و علنی به انواع فسادهای مالی متهم شده بود و همه نیروهای خود را برای جمع آوری شواهد موارد تقلب در انتخابات بسیج کرده بود بصورت راهپیمائی های اعتراضی میلیونی در روزهای بعد از اعلام نتیجه انتخابات بنمایش گذاشته شد. مبارزه این گروه که بنظر میرسید بوسیله دار و دسته باصطلاح اصول گرا مورد تهدید جدی قرار گرفته بود در این شرایط مبارزه برای مرگ یا زندگی بود. برخورد نیروهای دولتی با این اعتراضات کار را بخشونت کشید و عده زیادی از مردم در طی چند روز زخمی و کشته شدند اما این برخوردها نه تنها مردم را ساکت نکرد بلکه موجب شد که کنترل حرکات اعتراضی از دست عوامل میانه رو خارج شده و جنبشی از آن بوجود آید که موجودیت کل رژیم اسلامی را مورد تهدید قرار دهد. نمایش رشادتها و دلیریهای بهت انگیز از سوی ایرانیان درون مرز در برخورد با نیروهای سرکوبگر دولت جمهوری اسلامی توجه جهان را بخود جلب کرد و همین موضوع موجب شد تا بسیاری از ایرانیانی که تا کنون هیچ علاقه ای به شرکت در امور سیاسی مربوط به ایران نشان نمیدادند بعرصه چنین فعالیتهائی کشیده شوند.

این روزها با توجه به حرکات دلیرانه مردم ایران در درون کشور و در مقابل نیروهای سرکوبگر بازار نمایشهای میهن پرستی و پشتیبانیهای دو آتشه از مبارزات مردمی در خارج از کشور هم ابعاد جدیدی پیدا کرده. حضور گسترده گروهی از ایرانیان که بگونه ای مستقیم یا غیر مستقیم به عوامل درون نظام وابستگی داشته یا دارند موضوع حرکات اعتراضی در خارج از کشور را دچاز پیچیدگیهائی کرده است که گاهی تشخیص اینکه هدف از اعتراضات چیست مشکل میشود. تلاشهای زیادی در خارج از کشورمیشود تا حرکات اعتراضی در یک مسیر کنترل شده باشد و در این راستا کوشش زیادی روی انحصاری و محدود کردن مفاهیمی مانند "آزادی بیان" و "حقوق بشر" متمرکز شده تا نیروهای خارج از نظام که با کلیت نظام مخالفت میکنند از محدوده این گونه اعتراضات بیرون بمانند. این موضوع باعث شده که بسیاری از ایرانیان به حرکات اعتراضی بعضی از معترضین و هدفهای آنها با شک و تردید نگاه کنند و از این جمله هستند اعتصاب غذای آقای اکبر گنجی و رکاب زنی دوچرخه سوارانی که باصطلاح برای حمایت از حقوق بشر از تورنتو تا درب سفارت جمهوری اسلامی در اتاوا را با دوچرخه پیمودند.

آقای اکبر گنجی که خودش در زمانیکه در زندان جمهوری اسلامی بود از حمایت بی دریغ ایرانیان مبارز خارج از کشور برخوردار بود و شرایط او بوسیله همان ایرنیان به مرکز توجه جهانیان کشیده شد در حرکت اعتراضی خود با شیوه ای که خاص انحصار گرایان جمهوری اسلامیست شرکت و همکاری افرادی را که پرچم سه رنگ شیر و خورشید نشان ایران را در دست داشته باشند ممنوع کرد و باینوسیله نشان داد که مفهوم آزادی بیان و حقوق بشر مورد نظر ایشان فقط محدود به کسانیست که با ایشان در مورد پرچم ایران هم عقیده باشند. همین مسئله در مورد دوچرخه سواران تورنتوئی در کانادا که روی سینه های خود واژگان "حقوق بشر" را نوشته بودند نیز بخوبی صدق میکند. این گروه که چیزی در حدود 450 کیلومتر را رکاب زده بودند تا در روز دوشنبه چهارم مرداد ماه نامه ای را که ظاهرا در زمینه حقوق بشر نوشته بودند اما آنرا با کسانی که به استقبال آنها در مقابل سفارت جمهوری اسلامی رفته بودند در میان نگذاشنتد، به سفارت ایران بدهند، با بی اعتنائی غیر مودبانه ای با مستقبلین برخورد کردند فقط به این بهانه که آنها پرچم شیر و خورشید نشان ایران را با خود حمل میکردند. معلوم نیست که این گروه تعریف "حقوق بشر" خود را از کجا یاد گرفته بودند که شامل آزادی داشتن و حمل پرچم شیر و خورشید نشان ایران نمیشود و اگر میشود دلیل آن رفتار غیر مودبانه که شایسته هیچ ایرانی میهن پرست نیست چه بود؟ جالب اینکه این گروه از ورود یکی از افراد موثر در تلاشهای اخیر جنبش سبز در اتاوا را که میخواست همراه آنان در موقع تحویل نامه ای که معلوم نبود در آن چه نوشته اند جلوگیری کردند به این بهانه که او همراه آنان در رکاب زنی شرکت نداشته است و باینوسیله جلوه ای از تنگ نظریها و حرکات مشکوک را بنمایش گذاشتند.

حقوق بشر و آزادی بیان انحصاری نیست و آنها که مفهوم واقعی این مقوله ها را نمیدانند بهتر است اول کمی تحقیق کنند چون اگر کسی این مفاهیم را بشناسد و چنین عمل کند کار او به چیزی جز تظاهر و دروغ نمیتواند تعبیر شود. شرافت انسانی حکم میکند که از سوء استفاده از چنین مفاهیمی برای خود نمائی و خود ستائی و نیز در جهت بهره برداریهای خواص خود داری کنیم و با این کارهای تنگ نظرانه و بی معنی و بی دلیل حرکتهای عظیم اعتراضی مردم خودمان در درون کشور را در چشم خارجیهائی که با دقت به اعمال ما در سراسر جهان نگاه میکنند کوچک و بی ارزش نکنیم. بدون هیچ شکی مردم در ایران به این رویاروئی بزرگ با دستگاه حاکمه جمهوری اسلامی وارد نشده اند که فقط یک مهره درون سیستم جایش با دیگری عوض شود. عناصر درون و وابسته به جمهوری اسلامی نخواهند توانست با ظواهر متمدنانه و به بازی گرفتن ارزشهای شناخته شده مبارزات مردم را منحرف و آنها را از پیگیری هدفهای ملی خود که بدست آوردن حقوق بشر واقعی و آزادی واقعی در یک سیستم سکولار و آزاد است باز دارند. حقوق بشر و آزادی بیان بر اساس تعریف هر دو مقوله هائی هستند که هم اجتماعی و هم سیاسی هستند و همه فعالیتها و خواسته های سیاسی، فرهنگی و اجتماعی مردم را در بر میگیرند و اگر کسی جز این ادعا کند یا از معنای حقوق بشر بی اطلاع است یا فریبکاری میکند.


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more from Sohrab_Ferdows
 
benross

Shaayad keh

by benross on

That's fine with me. Nice talking to you. Keep thinking about my crazy ideas.

... because that's the only way out. 


shaayad keh

Benross,

by shaayad keh on

 Reading your comments, I first concluded that you must be crazy, but amazed of what I read, at the 2nd glance, I must be out of my mind discussing my mind with you.

Peace,

 Shaayad Keh


benross

Let's keep talking

by benross on

There will be no contradiction if we keep talking to each-other.

The idea of regime change can't be more clear and the flag represents it clearly. The contradiction is not coming from me. It is coming from the society. The contradiction is coming from improvised green movement that doesn't have any specific goal. What I'm offering is a way out of the contradiction and we can do it if we keep talking to each-other.

We support this green movement and we will be fully inclusive. At the same time we will be a voice for what is the ultimate goal, regime change. This is not even revolutionary. Giving back common sense to governance structure is not revolutionary. It is ending the 'Counter- Revolutionary'. This has been even discussed within the Islamic regime. But of-course, as it turned out, it was rebuffed by Khamenei way before it could even start!

If by 'revolutionary' you mean 'violent', I don't think this is our desire, nor our decision. The violence is an everyday reality in Iran and we have no intention to intensify it. If anything, by organizing ourself around the ultimate goal and be a strong voice for regime change, we may be able to reduce violence substantially.

We all know that the ultimate resolution of the conflict in Iran is a free decision by Iranian people about the nature of the regime they want to have in Iran. This is the voice we can provide outside of Iran and using our freedom, to enrich its content. This strong and well organized voice, has no intention to 'invade' Iran! It only provides this voice, to the movement inside. And it uses its international power to keep the dialogue open with everybody. From Kamenei and Ahmadinejad to Moosavi and others, from Iranian army to the revolutionary guards, and of-course the dialogue with the new generation, with whom all started and all will end.

Ahmadinejad took the power and there will be less and less large scale manifestations in Iran. The green supporters outside, you know it, will go back home soon if they don't see anything exciting to do. They don't want to go back home, but they will eventually go, if they don't see any goal to fight for.

You are one of the organizers of green gatherings. So you have a first hand knowledge about its fervor. How do you see it going from here on?

For Iranians inside, making a defiant gesture on their way to work is quite an accomplishment. They get instant satisfaction for what they did. But for giving a sense to it all, they are waiting for us to be organized.

Such organization with such voice abroad, if it can be open for dialogue with Khamenei, how it can not be open with Moosavi supporters?

If there is a remote possibility that a political coalition inside Iran prepare itself for next election with clear mandate of a referendum about the regime, we can be a powerful voice that they can count on. We will promote the ultimate goal of referendum anywhere.

The contradiction you see is not coming from the clear idea that everybody has, but from confusing actions that some people might prefer to take (outside) and they are forced to take (inside).

You noted the historic impact of 30 years of Islamic regime. Oh yes sorry I missed it! 

This impact includes illusions about the reform within. But it particularly includes a whole new generation, born and grown in Islamic regime, who made green movement what it is. I see in this generation, a return to Iranian identity and they do it clearly as an alternative to Islamic regime. They emphasis the role of clerics in Mashrooteh movement. A tribute to the clerics who contributed in creating a secular society. These all can be discussed at large. The contradiction is not from me. It is from what is forced upon society. We will overcome this contradiction by talking to each-other.

We have to keep talking. There is no other way. If there was, you, as an organizer of green movement could provide us a clear perspective about what green movement is going from here on... without the flag. Or -fortunately not the case- you wouldn't even have bordered to participate in this discussion. But you know it, as well as I do, that we have no other choice but to talk.


shaayad keh

Dear Benross,

by shaayad keh on

 Unfortunately the discussion about the SOK flag is a wide and open playing field where the question about its representation changes often. There must be a will for Iranians to want to be united around this issue but I guess there are forces in play resisting its progress.

 You say; "Iran flag doesn't represent only an 'identity'. It represent an identity that has everything about Iran, and NOTHING about Islamic regime. THIS is the importance of the flag."

Read it couple of times and see if you can find your own added confusion to this debate? And please have in mind that Islamic regime identity, good or bad, is still a part of Iran's history. You can not eliminate this past thirty years, no matter how shameful for Iran and Iran's history. That is what most of Iranians in diaspora have done for the last thirty years by sitting outside, taking a revolutionary position that IRI is a backward regime and we got nothing to do with it. Their opposition's struggle was limited to talking bad of the regime at their parties over tea or vodka.

I believe by opening this discussion i am giving in to diluting the flag discussion and playing into the hand of people who do not want to specifically talk on the flag issue. But I do not know how else to bring new elements to prove my point when we change subject often. My bad.

Flag is about identity how ever you want to look at it and the green movement has its own identity and this movement started in Iran against the Iranian regime. There is nothing shameful or wrong about it.

And yes, it does not go all the way to bring all and everybody under it but with the limited capabilities and resources it is a step forward for all Iranians. Or do we have other options? The only option I see is either to give it life or to kill it and I do not think SOK flag is giving it life simple because there are a lot of people who think like me, if not the majority. 

If we wanted a full blown revolution that freed all people in Iran, we should have one. but the reason it does not exist speaks volume to the fact that we are not ready for it. At least for now.

The slogan " esteglal, azadi, jomhoriye irani" has been used a lot these days to argue the extend of this movement. I wish the "allah o akbar" of this movement by even non-belivers could teach us something.

At the end, dear Benross the best agument against your case is just reading your own writing because it is full of contridictory statements. Please read them couple of times with a will that you want this argument resolved.

Peace, 

Shaayad Keh


benross

This is a duty

by benross on

This is a healthy debate... we should have had it years ago! I wished this thread continued in Persian as it started. Iranians abroad, particularly in European countries (and possibly Iran) could better participate in this debate.

Although some purely Californian details of some events escape me (I'm happily NOT Californian!) but I get the idea. I let those who were pointed out in Shaayad Keh piece, defend themselves. There is a saying (my saying!) that "God save monarch from monarchists!"

Your case *about* the flag is flawless. But it's not much of a case *against* it. It simply presents a different take about it which is respectable and debatable.

Iran flag doesn't represent only an 'identity'. It represent an identity that has everything about Iran, and NOTHING about Islamic regime. THIS is the importance of the flag.

I agree with Ari that your imagery of moon-landing is brilliant. But this is it. This is exactly it. What do you expect? that they go on the moon and chant kumbaya?! and if they did chant kumbaya, it would have had the exact same significance that the flag had.

What 'Green' represents is resistance against Islamic repression. It is conditioned with whatever is feasible. It borrows the Islamic Revolution slogans and changes its words. It borrows religious guidelines and interprets them differently. It goes as far as it can, without aiming directly the Islamic regime. This 'Green' is glorious and should be supported by all of us. We should all wave the green, even carry the picture of Moosavi, by those who feel like it, who truly showed human values so far, that I personally didn't expect it at all.

But is this green, Iran? Does it represent what people don't want or it represent what they want? This is where I fully disagree with Shaayad Keh and all the conclusions that are naturally drawn from it.

The fact is whatever happens in Iran, will happen by people inside Iran. Iranians abroad can not -even if they wanted to- 'remote control' the events inside Iran. This is a misinterpretation of the issue. The issue is that as Iranians abroad, how we can support Iranians inside Iran. Our duty is to do what Iranians inside can not do. Discuss, and express our wishes, without them being conditioned by the repression inside Iran. Somehow, things that we are doing right here, in this thread.

We are not a bunch of well wisher citizens of the world, supporting the Iranian people. They do exist and they are very appreciated. But we are Iranian CITIZENS abroad, not only entitled to have a say about the outcome, but particularly a DUTY to carry-out the tasks that Iranians inside can not do and we can.

Dismissing Iranian flag turns us from Iranian citizens, to a bunch of international well wishers and if we are nothing but that, how come this well wishers are overwhelmingly Iranians?


vildemose

Sohrab jan

by vildemose on

<b>In my opinion, the so called "Green Movement" outside Iran has absolutely nothing to do with the genuine uprising of people inside the country which is after fundamental changes in the governing system of the country (we saw it in people chanting "esteghlal, azadi, jomhuriye irani" on the streets) and those who try to control this movment outside the country are merely doing it to protect the status quo for the interests of certain people or groups. It is really unfortunate to see the tracks of unholy alliance of politically bankrupt leftist camp like Tudeh party and Fadaiyaane Aksariyat with some lobby groups for Islamic regime in the activities outside Iran who work in a direction against unity and national interests of Iranian people but thanks god, the story is different inside the country where the genuine struggle is going on and the real results will materialize there</b>

Excellent. That is too true. 

 


Ari Siletz

Shaayad Keh, your case is for Iranian unity

by Ari Siletz on

You make solid arguments around the issue of identity.

Having closed the article 19 case in favor of NOT bringing the SOK to the Green demonstrations, it is time to open the argument to the other issue surrounding the flag controversy: Identity. And you have done a fantastic job laying out identity related reasons against the SOK at Green events. 

To confess, I like the Derafsh e Kaviani, and if this had been a Shahnameh gathering with only literary content, flying the flag in an airplane would be a cute thing to do. But though we may be united in our literary or cultural affection for the Derafsh, we may not be united on what it means to our modern politics. So in order to stay united in a political demonstration, we defer to the "least common denominator" of our political beliefs. I leave my Derafsh in the trunk of my car, and you do the same with whatever flag would have caused disunity with me. 

 

And you're right. If I do bring my flag to the party, having been informed that it would infringe on the "least common denominator" unified identity of the cause, I  do expose myself to valid suspicions of an agenda at odds with that cause..

By the way, brilliant corroborating imagery with the moonlanding.


Sohrab_Ferdows

Your case is against Iranians unity

by Sohrab_Ferdows on

Dear Friend,

I don't think you really need to resort to wickipedia to describe what the flag stands for. The point is that you can not segregate a group of people based on their opinion about a flag and then claim that you believe in freedom of expression and human rights! All you have written in your message was nothing but an excuse to justify forcing your opinion on others. I am sure many of those who appeared in the demos outside Iran to support green movement in the country were forced to accept that flawed logic in order to avoid being confronted by the crowd which was provoked against having a lion&sun flag with them and most of the rest accepted your view because they found it more convinient for themselves as frequent visitors to Iran or, in some cases, were dependent on the grants which come from institues linked with Islamic Republic and had to follow certain directions. This is not a guess. This is what I have found out through my conversations. It is this kind of logic which is more damaging to unity of Iranians than anything else because as it has been mentioned before, unity for certain "cause" is not for those who have "same opinion" about something and does not mean you should relinquish what you believe in either. Whether we like it or not, a huge portion of Iranian population have deep resentments against Islamic regime as a whole and I find it really amusing that anyone may believe that people go and get themselves killed for having their head scarf a bit loose or being able to listen to music within Islamic Republic framework!

In my opinion, the so called "Green Movement" outside Iran has absolutely nothing to do with the genuine uprising of people inside the country which is after fundamental changes in the governing system of the country (we saw it in people chanting "esteghlal, azadi, jomhuriye irani" on the streets) and those who try to control this movment outside the country are merely doing it to protect the status quo for the interests of certain people or groups. It is really unfortunate to see the tracks of unholy alliance of politically bankrupt leftist camp like Tudeh party and Fadaiyaane Aksariyat with some lobby groups for Islamic regime in the activities outside Iran who work in a direction against unity and national interests of Iranian people but thanks god, the story is different inside the country where the genuine struggle is going on and the real results will materialize there.

 

Peace,

Sohrab Ferdows


shaayad keh

Case against the flag....

by shaayad keh on

 Wikipedia defines flag as:

A flag is a piece of fabric, often flown from a pole or mast, generally used symbolically for signaling or identification. It is most commonly used to symbolize a country. The term flag is also used to refer to the graphic design employed by a flag, or to its depiction in another medium.

The first flags were used to assist military coordination on battlefields, and flags have since evolved into a general tool for rudimentary signaling and identification, especially in environments where communication is similarly challenging (such as the maritime environment where semaphore is used). National flags are potent patriotic symbols with varied wide-ranging interpretations, often including strong military associations due to their original and ongoing military uses. Flags are also used in messaging, advertising, or for other decorative purposes. The study of flags is known as vexillology, from the Latin vexillum meaning 

 The emphasize when talking about flag is "identity".

 Now, the green movement has chosen green specifically for its identity and anything that damages its identity damages its integrity I do not need to preach you on how this color of green has become a hassle for Iran. I do not know if you know it or not but the paint shops in Iran can not sell green ink or paint. People mix yellow and blue to produce it. Today this movement figured bazaar is a good and safe place for future protests, so they have arranged to go to bazaar for their protests and to confuse the police and to satisfy bazaaries, they buy green merchandise......

Most of us abroad, while starving for outside help to the brave people of Iran has come to the conclusion that no foreign help will help the independence of this movement. Supposedly nobody outside Iran is leading the movement in Iran. We only intend to keep their voice alive outside of Iran. I hope you agree with me up to now.

If you put the two together (identity of the movement and our support of their movement) together, the only reasonable conclusion is to display their identity (color of green) and display their struggle.

If there are no hidden agendas, why is it so hard to implement that? I am all for a secular republic of Iran and most importantly I believe to get to a secular Iran we need to start here with the green movement. For the last thirty years have we had any other opportunity like this? Why not reinforcing it  with all our might? 

Now the case against the flag;

While the historical value of this flag is known to all Iranians, and while this flag was very instrumental for the opposition to IRI for the first decade after the revolution, it has now mostly become the identity of two organizations, Monarchists and MEK. I am not a Monarchist and nor a supporter of MEK and I do not wish to be identified with either. Isn't this my right? At the same time I like to be identified with the green movement. So, I raise funds, spend a lot of time helping organizers of the event, make phone calls, and print pamphlets to promote this green movement with its green identity and on the day of the event, not only sk flags dominate the protest, a drafshe kaviani is flying overhead in the blue sky. That is the purpose of the flag, isn't it? To dominate! U.S. of A. goes to the moon and the one thing they make sure to bring is their flag, their identity, although the news from all over the world has covered the story that beyond a shadow of a doubt America has gone to the moon, but it is not official until the flag is installed. Isn't that right?

Just out of curiosity, how come whoever organized the derefsh kaviani fly over never attended the organizing committee? Was that not a "united" event?

I remember couple years back when Bush came to Stanford, I was in a protest against the war with Iran. Then, the flag was not an issue, while I did not have one, but I felt good and if i had one i would carry it. That battle was showing Americans that we are Iranians, this flag is our identity and we do not want to be attacked!

This green movement has an identity, support it.

Peace,

Shaayad Keh 


vildemose

"So where is the argument

by vildemose on

"So where is the argument *against* carrying a flag?"

That was my argument precisly but I got sidetracked by being bullied...


Ari Siletz

benross, the defendant is Ari Siletz

by Ari Siletz on

My article 19 rights were violated during the San Francisco demonstration, and I spoke up.

And you're quite right. sohrab_ferdows gave a chance to all those grumbling about the SOK at the event to speak up. Where the heck were they with their speech on this thread?

You state:  Instead of constantly talking about freedom of speech, use it. This is the time.

Wise words! We should take our freedom of speech very seriously. Use it or lose it.


benross

Defendant rise

by benross on

I suppose this thread is not only read by those who put few words in it. So where is the argument *against* carrying a flag?

This is where the argument about freedom of speech falters, when there is no other speech. Where are those people who are overwhelmingly *against* a flag carrier? Where is their argument? They are the majority aren't they? Then where are they? The argument about the freedom of speech, whatever it is, can not be on behalf of nobody.

Yes there are some cases, actually many cases, that somebody should rise up and speak on behalf of those who have no voice. The victims of child abuse, poverty, discrimination.. you name it. But here, we are talking about Iranian gatherings in which, those who are against carrying the flag supposedly overwhelmingly outnumber those who want to carry it. Then let them speak up. Surely there has to be an argument somewhere, so strong that Iranians abroad overwhelmingly support it.

Speaking of freedom of speech, this is it, here, in this thread, right now, this is freedom of speech isn't it? So where is the speech? Instead of constantly talking about freedom of speech, use it. This is the time.

Mr.Siletz, wait for other side of the argument to speak up, and if things get ugly, then you jump in as a mediator. Jumping in as a mediator before an opposing view is expressed by anybody might look kind of suspicious!

And why don't you just ask people to carry their flag, any flag they wish, instead of banning Iranian flag. This looks more like rainbow coalition of Iran lovers don't you think.. but flag in smaller size of-course!

I go back to my argument about 'historical guilt'. These are all laughable attempts to cover-up a guilt. It doesn't work. It never did. We end up arguing as if we are talking in a void. As if we should completely ignore the mere existence of this massively large number of Iranian expatriates. As if they left country for fun. (and nowadays some of them do, and they do find a freedom of speech expert very useful)

But let's stay inclusive. Let people bring their flags, any flag they want. A smaller flag of-course. We don't want to get into the endless argument about which standard should we use for measuring the size of the flag, metric or imperial! The expertise of Mr.Siletz won't help in there and we are doomed!


vildemose

You conveniently interpret

by vildemose on

You conveniently interpret Article 19 to suit your agenda. However, the letter of the law and the spirit behind that law are highly debatable and it would depend whether you're a judicial activist or not. But that's another cup of tea entirely.


vildemose

Your decision not to

by vildemose on

Your decision not to participate in the Green demonstrations is ethical. If someone doesn't believe in a cause, then she shouldn't show up and try to distort their message. You would be respecting people's article 19 rights.

really? ethical?? Who do you really think you are to determine whose behavior constitutes ethical conduct or not??  You've been disningneous through and through and I"m glad I was able to bring it out of you for everyone to see. The only person who does not realize how dishonest this whole things has been is  you and your handlers.  

 


Ari Siletz

sohrab_ferdows

by Ari Siletz on

It was a pleasure exchanging thoughts with you, hopefully our explorations have brought our readers closer to an understanding of this complex situation.

Also, I do not dismiss citizen journalism as legitimate media, particularly these days because most of our awareness of the situation in Iran has come through just this source. Of course we need to exercise caution in verifying sources so that we are not misled by voice-overs on youtube. A name attached to the report is a good indicator that the source is willing to stand behind her report. The particular website I cited has a ranking similar to Iranian.com in reach, if you account for the fact that Toronto has a population of about 2.5 million, and the Diaspora (potential Iranian. com readers) claims a 5 million population.  I'm being statistically generous here.


Sohrab_Ferdows

Dear Mr. Siletz

by Sohrab_Ferdows on

Here is a point: news media is referred to known publishings which are generally referred to by society for news reports and have a real name. A blog, no matter how popular in your view, can not be considered a real news media becuase these bloggers are not trained and proffessional reporters and their reports could be easily influenced and biased by views of you and I if we speak to them. But anyways.. here is what you quoted from that report:

"I attended the peaceful rally that felt tense at some moments. A small group of Shah supporters holding the pre-revolutionary Iranian flag and shouting "Down with the Islamic Regime" was drowned-out by chants of "Peace" and "Human Rights in Iran" by the larger crowd in green."

I was interested to know where is the hindering or obstructing caused by the "flag" in that report? A small group shouted "down with Islamic regime", which was chanted by some Iranian protesters on the streets of Tehran, and they were silenced or "drowned out" by larger group? Then how such small group was obstructing anything if they were "drowned down"? Who silenced whom here? Who caused hindrance against whom? Why should I believe a blogger to be reporting honestly and unbiasedly if she calls the people who had "pre-revolutionary flag" as Shah supporters while I know many of them are not? How do I trust this blogger that no one other than those with flag chanted "down with Islamic regime"? How do you know and how does she know? My friend, being non-Iranian blogger does not automatically grant credibility to anyone! I have seen "page full" of Islamic regime's propaganda in New York Times! Thank you for the exchange. Here is the link to your page:

//www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/green_is_the_th...

And here is what people said on the streets of Tehran:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2_Hi8JcxLM


Ari Siletz

vildmose

by Ari Siletz on

Your decision not to participate in the Green demonstrations is ethical. If someone doesn't believe in a cause, then she shouldn't show up and try to distort their message. You would be respecting people's article 19 rights.

 

As for who the green movement includes. There are some who want a regime change (me), those who want to keep the IRI in a reformed version, and those undecideds who are just also upset about the brutality of the current IRI version (without wishing to force the movement towards any agenda not related to human rights). If you are one of these, then you are on solid moral grounds in joining our protests.  

Also, I was not one of the organizers. One of the main organizers of the San Francisco event was Ross Mirkarimi, a memeber of the San Francisco Board of Supervisers. He seems laid back about the flag issue, which may explain why SOK flag carriers were not asked to put their flags down, even though the flier specifically requested people not to bring flags.  

 


vildemose

I have to admit, I should

by vildemose on

I have to admit, I should have done more research before jumping on the green movement bandwagon. I think the emotions was running so high that noone really thought about the politics behind the green flag. If I understand correctly now, the Green flag represents those reformists who believe in preserving the Islamic Republic as is. I don't think this was clear to many who attended the protest.

Next time, I won't be so naive. As Bush would say, "Fool me once, fool me twice, shame on you."..lol


Ari Siletz

vildemouse

by Ari Siletz on

The venn diagram you drew verbally says all non-reformists are welcome to participate in the united4Iran demostrations. This includes the baseej who shot Neda Aghasoltan. I know that is not the conclusion you wish to draw. If your mitigating argument is the quotes you put around "hameh," then you are calling for a "hameh" demonstration, not a Green demonstration. Hold it at a different time or place from the Green demonstration so that you are not violating the group's article 19 rights, and I will show up with a regime change flag. Bottom line, people are dying in the streets in Iran, and some are not dying for a regime change. Some are just dying for the right not to wear the hejab, not regime change. Some are dying for freedom of the press, not regime change. Is it fair to put words in a dying woman's mouth as she breaths her last? However much I would like her last words to have been "down with the IRI," that is not what she said.  Is it too much just for the sake of respect--for her sake--to leave the SOK flag or the Allah flag at home and just be tallied in front of the world as a person of conscience with no other agenda or plan other than to ask to ask for human rights?     

vildemose

I don't belong to any

by vildemose on

I don't belong to any political party or subscribe to any political ideology. But if I had known that my presence at the protest means accepting the IRI as is,  I would have never sullied my soul.


vildemose

Let me get this right.

by vildemose on

Let me get this right. According to you, the Green movement is not an all inclusive big tent for Iranians of all stripes to rally under. That is just fine and dandy but please next time, specify who are considered khodi, and Nakhodi. That's all. I'm certain noone with opposing view point will  even bother to be there let alone bring a flag. Problem solved. Be honest, that's all.


vildemose

If that is the case, the

by vildemose on

If that is the case, the whole UNITED 4 IRAN was a deceptive framing of the issues to bring out more people than you would have if you specifically mentioned those who don't accept the Islamic Republic Need Not Apply. Please next time, don't be more honest.


Ari Siletz

vildemose

by Ari Siletz on

If political factions could "put aside" their differences (if for a day, then why not longer?), there would be no uprising, no demonstrations, no need for a democratic process, and no need for article 19 of UDHR. A consensus will simply appear out of a "vaccum" as you put it. Your theory on the nature of united4Iran assumes a cultural, historical, and political vaccum, whereas these social realities have considerable substance. Trying to make something fly by making it lighter is a good idea, but not to the point where there's nothting there to fly but a false sense of amity.

vildemose

رفرمیست ها همه

vildemose


رفرمیست ها همه جنبش سبزی هستند
ولی(( همه)) مردم رفرمیست نیستند پریود


vildemose

Why the need for UNITY if

by vildemose on

Why the need for UNITY if everyone agreed with each other??

Was Neda a Mousavi supporter??? I don't think so. Did you use Neda's picture in your demonstration???


vildemose

Ari, were you and organizer

by vildemose on

Ari, were you and organizer for this event? Who was behind this protest? any specific organizations that we should know about?


vildemose

I can see why you're having

by vildemose on

I can see why you're having a problem. Perhaps in your view, you regard teh Islamic republic and Iran as one and the same. If that is the case, the organizers should have made this distinction clear and I'm certain that the turn oust would not have been nearly as much as they were.


vildemose

ari: You would be right if

by vildemose on

ari: You would be right if you were speaking in a complete vaccum. United for Iran to those who don't agree with Your point of view means, put aside your differences for one day regardless of your opposing point of views. United4Iran does not mean subjugation to the dominant bully around the corner.

You're stretching it a bit too much to prove your point. It won't fly. 

 


Ari Siletz

vildemose

by Ari Siletz on

UNITED FOR IRAN means bring to the demonstration whatever unites us (human rights in Iran), it is just the opposite of saying bring whatever you feel like, even if you know it can confuse our common message. You can add salt to your meal after it has been served to you, but you are making an unreasonable demand if you insist on salting the communal pot to your taste. This is the culinary equivalent of the SOK group's violation of the Green article 19 rights.

Ari Siletz

Sohrab_ferdows, responding to your challenge

by Ari Siletz on

Your challenge:

I challenge you to bring a single media report that indicates any of recent Iranian protests, other than being against fraud in the election and bloody suppression of people, had anything to do with flag or those who displayed it.

The response:

This report in a popular Toronto website ( a city where a Green demonstration took place) says, "I attended the peaceful rally that felt tense at some moments. A small group of Shah supporters holding the pre-revolutionary Iranian flag and shouting "Down with the Islamic Regime" was drowned-out by chants of "Peace" and "Human Rights in Iran" by the larger crowd in green."

The reporter's name is Debbie Pacheo (not an Iranian name) and she seems aware that the political difference between the Greens and the Shir O Khorshid flag (SOK) carriers is that the Toronto Greens are not necessarily asking for a regime change, whereas the Toronto Shir O Khorshid flag carriers wish their symbol to represent a call for regime change. These flag carriers are therefore going beyond the "least common denominator" of the call for peace and Human Rights. The Toronto SOK group may believe a regime change and Human Rights are the same thing; theToronto Greens differ in that view--according to Debbie Pacheo's report.