Sic Semper Tyrannis

Oktaby jan

I was defending Yolanda. Whether someone is Iranian or not has nothing to do with discussions. If someone who is not Iranian cares about Iran and joins this website I am honoured.  There seems to be some posts insulting people that they are not Iranian or patriotic enough lately. I find all that irrelevant and insulting to those at the receiving end. Just wanted to clarify my comment.

Yolanda, nice catch

 Shepesh, your phrasing leaves room for interpretation.

OKtaby

Pathetic

you're not even from Iran, nor do you have parents from Iran I'm sure.

How ridiculous. This is what Iranian discussions have come to.

Yolanda you're a joke

Do you have any life?? Do you just go around checking people's grammar and spelling mistakes each and everyday to determine if they are the same exact individual??

I'm not No Fear, but I'm glad my grammar threw you off to show your ignorance, that mispelled errors do not necessarily implicate that 2 different people are the same.

I respect No Fear's views on most topics, that doesn't mean we are the same people. Keep dreaming :P, I'm sure all 5 IRI guys on here, are all me too right???

Please get a life, and stop trolling, and if you think nobody cares about my posts and responses, then why do they answer them?? Also why did you post multiple times on my topic??

You are a joke, you're not even from Iran, nor do you have parents from Iran I'm sure.

Yolanda jan

Good catch!!!

.....

Hi! AO,

     Sorry to side-track......I just discovered that  iranvataneman and No fear spell "Congratulations" the exact same way as "Congradulations"....Wow! What a coincidence! Here is his post:

//iranian.com/main/comment/reply/106522/293307

I guess they are short of people, so one person has to use 2 different Id's to increase IRI's presence on IC!

Oktaby Jaan - How true

You can see the boasting amplify, temper rising and threat per classic IRR conduct via brown nosing to jj, n pretzel's last response (or Exir's I mentioned if you had seen it before deletion).

Great observation.  How true.  Threatening is part of IRI's culture.   Actually, I hope that JJ does take note of Q's accusations and looks at our respective IP addresses.  Judging from the time that you leave your comments, I think we are actually in different time zones, unless I had stayed up in wee hours of the night to respond to "Q", and frankly, he is not that important to me. :-))  But like I said, I hope that JJ does take note of this fact, because Q's accusations against people who he doesn't like of using multiple ID's are becoming more and more abusive, absurd and belligerent.  

The other laughable thing is that he is accusing me and you of being the same person to generate publicity for my blog.  But if you look at the 254 comments on this blog, you will note that I probably have fewer than 20 comments (perhaps even fewer than 15--I didn't count them).  I actually like to generate a debate and then see other people discussing the issue.  I think that contributes a lot to a an exercise in free speech and debate, which is something that our community needs.  And unlike all other blogs on the list of "most discussed", (especially the one above mine) where sometimes the overwhelming majority of the comments are from the blogger him/herself, my comments on this blog are a handful.   But then again, when was the last time that the IRI or its supporters were known for their truthfulness? 

I only defend the truth

Not that I care what you think, but I only defend the truth against those who abuse science and statistics for political reasons and essentially lie like the hypocrites they are. As I have demonstrated repeatedly, being blinded by hate and making ridiculous absolutist statement reflecting only the hatred in your heart, actually hurts your own cause. This is why the opposition is completely ineffective and the only Iranian people doing anything of value are those who have rejected the fossilized dinosaurs.

Anyone seriously asking for one good thing any complex system like Iran has done in 30 years is not being objective or scientific. Such a person is only trying to reflect the burning hate in their heart. Numbers are completely incidental.

When it suits them, they use it to get their way in a pathetic non-point, and no more questions can be asked. When it suits them, they completely ignore the best of statistics, and reject anything they don't like. Their brains can't handle nuance and complexity, that's why they are angry. This is what happened here.

Oktaby says:

The point, Q, is there is no statistic on this planet that will make you accept anything other than what you believe in your twisted head.

LOL.

I made 3 specific arguments, which you can't answer (and didn't even try). You are now just wasting time pretending you have a case at all. Let me summerize them for you.

1. "Per Capita" statistics are misleading and problematic. Smaller countries, and those with imported immigrant labor grossly distort it. If you believe this you must believe that Iran is currently doing better than China. Of course you are an inconsistent hypocrite, so you avoid the subject.

2. "Nominal GDP" is not an apples-to-apples comparison. It does not reflect local market conditions and costs. A piece of bread might be more affordable in Monaco then in Russia, even though the one in Russia might cost less in dollars. This is why real economists increasingly use PPP (purchasing power parity) instead of nominal.

3. You are arguing an absolutist absurdity. You purposefully choose anything that makes your point look good, and ignore other consequences of the same belief, just like the AO (and many other people normally blinded by hate). This is why you chose per capita GDP, and completely ignore any other statistics, and even the absurd consequences of pc GDP like Qatar being ranked ahead of Japan.

Vildemose is wrong. She is just trying to salvage a hopeless situation for your side. This is not a matter of equal economic indicators, so you can say "one or two indicators are one way, and some are the other way". No! The PPP (of course also has its own problems) but it is an objectively better measure than Nominal GDP. That's why it corresponds nearly perfectly with G20 countries. It's better than per/capita Nominal because it avoids the problems discussed above and still does not lead to absurd conclusions like Qatar being ahead of USA. Let's face it, you don't like it because it doesn't reflect your beliefs. You hate it because CIA statistics list Iran as #16. You couldn't care less about its accuracy.

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

Unlike you, I'm not an absolutist. I'm a realist. I have never said IRI is good, no matter what, in fact, I have never said "IRI is good" at all. I have even praised the Shah on occasions. I do not go around making absurd black/white statements like you do, and you still have the audacity to pretend there is data to support them!

You only hurt yourself. Some young Iranian who may have been pursuaded by a calm, nuanced and reasonable argument looking at both sides of an issue, will now walk away thinking you and your whole generation are unreasonable freak dinasaurs who care about nothing but their own already-established opinion. They are willing to pull any numbers out of their ass if it suits them. That's not at all attractive. Which brings me back to your glorious "success" record in fighting the IRI, or even doing anything useful, in the last 31 years.

("glorious success" is sarcastic, just FYI.)

By the way:

the story is sad and simple: Iran has been on a downslope since these criminals stole the country.

Completely wrong. The story is not simple. Iran's economic indicators went down in the War years but have decidedly improved since then. If you can't even acknowledge this established reality, you only prove your own bias and dishonest absolutism, exactly like AO's "blog".

AO & benross. Thanks but if one thing IRR never lacks

is shamelessness so you can be sure this will go on. Like I mentioned earlier 'amr beheshoon moshtabah shodeh' and they think 'Aliabad ham shahre'.

Irandudee, you are right and occasional exposing of the agents perhaps qualifies as public service. You can see the boasting amplify, temper rising and threat per classic IRR conduct via brown nosing to jj, n pretzel's last response (or Exir's I mentioned if you had seen it before deletion).

Cheers 

OKtaby

Oktaby/AO,

you literally can't understand what I'm saying. I assume this is a combination of being blinded by hate (so blind you can't read) and your poor grasp of English.

"destroying Iran repeatedly" as you suggest Q, is not just Hyperbole and innuendo, but it is also contradictory to your repeated claims that those of us in the West are irrelevant, out of touch and can't do anything.

It's called sarcasm genius. I said brains like yours is how you have "destroyed IRI repeatedly" in the past 30 years. As in, you have not! You are irrelevant. Thanks for the confirmation. Read carefully next time.

Your unusually-well prepared deflection trying to project your own guilt onto me, won't work. I'm not a coward and I've been blessed with very good memory even at this age. I recall you made the same exact argument to me last time I called you out under another pair of names. If I had another hour to waste I would find it and prove it to you, but I don't care enough. I told you what I think and I agree with you that it is not important. One of these days your cowardly multi-ID abuse to generate your own blog publicity will piss off Javid enough to backfire and you will be exposed. I will be happy to wait until then. Suffice to say it's not serving your purpose quite as you thought.

Islamists cry ;(................

Why is it that whenever I see a debate bewteen islamists and normal Iranians, the average Iranian obliterates the islamist? Is it because they're out of touch with their own people and more importantly even their own islamist government?

seriously, it's quite sad how clueless and totally brainwashed these islamists are.

Kudos Oktaby

Kudos Oktaby

Superb, superb, superb Oktaby

I wish I had to writing abilities...or do I...since we're the same person?

:-))))

Seriously, superbly written.  The reasons you set forth are precisely why I rarely, if ever, engage in any kind of an exchange with the likes of Q. One can say nothing that will change their minds, so why try?  Just look at this thread and my exchanges with Capt_Ayhab.  He kept asking for "links" to show the inequality in IRI laws against women in Iran.  As if a woman's testimony in court being worth half of a man's under IRI law is a secret that needs to be proven with a link.  As you mentioned below in one of your earlier comments, this kind of "safsateh" is exactly what I said I wanted to avoid.

And "anti-Iran"...I guess that is the new IRI fashionable phrase, invented by the American military nut "sargord Pirooz" whose memory of Iran is when his American mother took him there for a trip 30 years ago.  Although I consider that insult a step up for IRI rif raf.  They have evolved from calling everyone a "Zionist".  And by "evolve" I of course mean a degree of evolution comparable to that of a fish crawling out of the primordial waters.

But again, magnificently done and magnificently put.  Thank you. 

PS- I guess the irony is also lost on the IRI crowd that while they always wail about the "West" and the U.S., they have chosen an American, "Sargord", who cannot read or write a word of Farsi as their standard bearer and leader on this site.  Indeed how ironic! 

Oktaby: Iran's income per

Oktaby: Iran's income per capita is lower than Gabon, Cyprus, Czeck Republic, Chile, etc. Although, China's income per capita is half of Iran. You see the absrudities of how one or two economic indicators don't really give the whole picture of the economic status of a country.

//siakhenn.tripod.com/capita.html

"destroying Iran repeatedly" as you suggest Q, is not just

Hyperbole and innuendo, but it is also contradictory to your repeated claims that those of us in the West are irrelevant, out of touch and can't do anything.

Before I continue lets address your accusation, especially since you and rest of IRR crowd are very good at crying foul. When 'shaban' made fun of you with a DK reference in your buddy Mola's blog (10 reasons IRR will rape for another 50 years), oddly enough a person named Exir shows up within minutes and uses the f work along with bunch of other colorful profanities at 'Shaban' before both comments were deleted. I'm sure you are not Exir.

Now, if I put another set of detailed stats from Iranian world-class experts, you will call them anti whatever and discredit them. If I suggest my own views you will call me names (I did provide a parody for you in Mola's mentioned blog). If I put generic info like the link, you will attack it as out of context and not good base for comparison.  If I quote the Iranian minister who suggested the tragic Oil situation and trends, you will say he does not know what he is talking about or he 'meant' something different.

The point, Q, is there is no statistic on this planet that will make you accept anything other than what you believe in your twisted head. Mix that with your ego (I'm not even talking about the fact that you are likely a paid IRR agent because if you are not paid to defend, then you are sicker than you appear from your comments) and it is very clear that you are neither interested in facts, reality or learning. You are here to defend IRR and attack anything resembling opposition and will do it by 'any means necessary'. There is no decent, honorable and normal human being, let alone Iranian who will defend this regime on moral or competence basis. 

Try to not talk down to people as you always defend the rapist regime, because the only one that you impress in yourself. Indeed even the attitude and temperament of your comments is very much like your beloved regime: you know best. Everything else can be twisted and/or negotiated to your ends. Your beloved regime and likes of you are the ones who have have been "destroying Iran repeatedly" and mercilessly. My view of you: iike the rest of IRR you are what your allah described in your ghoran as  'asfal-ol-safelin' (the lowest of the low).

OKtaby

Q

Actually, I wasn't even arguing with you.  But if it makes you happy...

But by scientifically based arguments you're of course talking about accusing people of using multiple ID's and personal attacks, right?

Anyway... 

AO,

Yes, that's exactly the kind scientifically based, numbers-backed and logic oriented argument I always expect at this point in any argument. It never fails.

This is why you and your "close friends" have been so successful in destroying IRI repeatedly in the past 30 years!

Thank You for not disappointing yet again!

Oktaby Jaan

Did you know that you and I are the same person?!!!  It's true.  Q says so!!!

Seriously Q, your witch hunt for multiple ID's is getting weirder and weirder.  And FYI, the only Iran haters are those who support the Iran hating IRI.  This whole concept of being "anti-Iran" if you dislike the IRI, while a good attempt at propaganda, (which seems to have been invented by the American "Sargord bazandeh") is  becoming quite boring and ineffective.  I think you guys should call IRI-central and ask for a new line.  :-) 

Oktaby, you don't understand math OR economics

Per Capita Nominal GDP is worthless. The same list says Iran is above China and Qatar and Lichtenstein are above US! Are you kidding?

Sadly you're not. These caveats are written all over the Wikipedia page. Since you are blinded by hate, you are purposefully misleading people which is to surprising. But as usual it will backfire.

"Per capita" statistics are not good indicators for the general welfare of a country. Countries like Cuba that have huge social sectors are discounted and countries like UAE that import slave-labor (Which is not counted in their "population") are favored. It also says nothing of the distribution of wealth which something like median income could provide. Per capita statistics put Iran ahead of China and Iceland ahead of Japan!

Furthermore, nominal GDP is not good for comparisons. It's not "apples to apples" This is why they invented PPP purchasing power parity, which adjusts for local markets.

If you look at GDP - PPP statistics, you will see that this is the measure that closely matches G20. Iran is in #16 and has been improving.

I explained this all before. Since that time, I just noticed that Iran has actually improved its ranking 2 spots!. As I said, just like AO and Oktababy (same person I bet), Jamshid, Zion and assorted other Iran-haters in that thread also started out pretending like they are using statistics and making scientific arguments.

Once all their BS was exhausted, they decended into an angry circular reasoning to the point where they were saying "Iran should not be in the G20 because Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons".

//iranian.com/main/blog/q/iran-should-be-...

You want to criticize IRI, that's fine. There are many legitimate things that can be said about its economy. But you will convince no one if you don't acknowledge reality and present a oversimplified and distorted picture designed for an echo chamber of fools!

Any answers

This analysis of the June 2009 elections just came out last week. It is quite thorough. It seems difficult to repudiate its conclusions. Anyone wants to try? //iran2009presidentialelection.blogspot.com/

Unlike IRR, numbers don't lie

Nominal world GDP rankings 2009: 

South Korea  #37,  Turkey #57, Iran #85

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Per Capita  2009:  SK  $17,074     Turkey  $8723       Iran: $ 4460 (Iran's number is comparable to African countries- explains AN and Mugabe holding hands))

In 1979 Iran was ahead of both Turkey and SK in all areas including above.

Keep in mind Turkey and South Korea have no Oil or other natural resources to speak of, so their numbers are driven by real growth in industrial and productive base.

Iran has world's second largest natural gas resources after Russia. As everyone around Iran is leveraging those resources (including countries like Qatar tapping into shared resources via underground tapping) Iran has essentially no Gas exploration to speak of. Given the aging Oil and refinery capacities, Iran's income both in real terms and potential future, is on a downtrend and will continue to decline.

See my previous comments on the never ending excuses but the story is sad and simple: Iran has been on a downslope since these criminals stole the country. 

OKtaby

More squandering of oil

More squandering of oil revenues by incompetent IRI's state mafia

Iran plans to replace foreign companies which have “dragged their feet for years” with domestic firms in developing its giant South Pars natural gas field, the oil minister was quoted as saying on Saturday.

Massoud Mirkazemi did not name any firms in a report carried by Mehr News Agency. But another official last month said Iran had given Royal Dutch Shell and Repsol one week to decide on their involvement in the offshore field.

Iran says both Anglo-Dutch Shell and Spain’s Repsol have procrastinated on finalizing their involvement in the world’s largest reservoir of gas. Go to Reuters.

To:ALL Great chart

To:ALL

Great chart comparing Iran's GDP to Turkey and Korea:

//iranian.com/main/news/2010/05/08-1

AO

writes, "Now, enter the IRI.  First, they create the conditions so that the Iran-Iraq war takes place, which damaged the plant.  Then they bribe every Russian mafioso and politician and beg them to re-build the facility (so much for their "homemade technology" :-)), and, two decades later, and billions of dollars pissed away to the Russians, the Chernobyl style reactor that the Russians had promised them is still not operational."    

How sadly true!

Iraniandudee

You are quite correct when you say that all of the projects that the IRI takes credit for had either already been planned or were underway when Shah was in power.  First, take the universities for example.  To this day, the only credible universities in Iran are the ones that were built under Shah (and they brag about education).  The only thing that the IRI has managed to do is to lower their world rankings.

Second, look at the Bushehr nuclear plant.  When the Shah left, construction of the two power plants was well underway.  One of the reactors was at 50% completion and the other was at a staggering 85% completion, and this is all within the span of only 4 years.   Here's some info:

Kraftwerk Union fully withdrew from the Bushehr nuclear project in July 1979, after work stopped in January 1979, with one reactor 50% complete, and the other reactor 85% complete. They said they based their action on Iran's non-payment of $450 million in overdue payments. The company had received $2.5 billion of the total contract. Their cancellation came after certainty that the Iranian government would unilaterally terminate the contract themselves, following the 1979 Iranian Revolution, which paralyzed Iran's economy and led to a crisis in Iran's relations with the West

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushehr_Nuclear_Power_Plant

Now, enter the IRI.  First, they create the conditions so that the Iran-Iraq war takes place, which damaged the plant.  Then they bribe every Russian mafioso and politician and beg them to re-build the facility (so much for their "homemade technology" :-)), and, two decades later, and billions of dollars pissed away to the Russians, the Chernobyl style reactor that the Russians had promised them is still not operational.     

[southlebanon]vataneman -- You First

Let's hear what you have contributed first.  You list yours first.

PS/ no one is bad mouthing the country.  IRI and Iran are two separate entities.  In fact, the two have a huge conflict of interest as someone once noted on this site. In fact, if you could read, you would realize that the question of the blog was what has the IRI done for Iran?  The answer to which is still: ZILCH!!  All it has done is produce idiots like you.

PSS/ IRI an "economic power"?!!!  LOL, you propagandists are funny.  here, read this:

//www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=40354

Everything every moron on this forum has failed to do

Contribute something to IRAN to make it a better place. IRI has improved everything from spending money on provinces, sports, technology, science, literature, infrastructure cutting poverty as much as it can, becoming an economic power, it's countless.

Now I have a question, WTH, have you contributed to Iran??? (Anonymous Observer) besides bad mouthing the country, and attacking its culture?? (absolutely nothing).

جمهوری اسلامی بی‌ نهایت کار خوب کرده

پایین آوردن سنّ ازدواج دختران به نه‌ (۹) سال

بالا بردن تعداد زن عقدی برای مردان به چهار (۴) عدد

بالا بردن تعداد زن صیغه برای مردان به بینهایت (۱۰۰۰۰۰۰۰۰۰۰۰۰)

No contribution from the islamic republic has been mentioned,

Only projects started by the Pahlavi dynasty and continued later on in a crappier way by the Islamic government. Face facts, If Iran's population is 83% literate under the islamic regime then it would be 100% literate under the pahlavi dynasty and etc.. etc.. etc...

Sure, we have some delusional islamists who can bark about how there are gazillion of contributions from the islamic regime but they can't even name one that wasn't already being done under the Pahlavi dynasty in a better and more succesful way. If the regime had been contributing so much to the Iranian people and society then Iranians wouldn't be resenting the Islamic regime like some sort of leach like government sucking out the blood of Iran and its potential.

The shah might have been not perfect, but I would choose him over the islamic regime anyday, anytime and so would most of my fellow Iranians.

"You should not be afraid of the ideology but of the determination and will of the men behind it"

"A drowning man is not troubled by rain" Persian Proverb

100s of "good reasons", and many have been mentioned

This discussion is moot because of the absolutist nature of the question, as I described below.

Was Rosie: "saltanat Taliban" is a pun on the plural of "Saltanat Talab" which mean Monarchist. It wasn't just an unimaginative association. Another good one I heard is "Saltanat Talab-karan"

Yes, the statistics on employment under the Shah was all over the place. I don't know the exact numbers, because no credible numbers really exist. Two main reasons: Shah's organs' lies to project a rosy national image + complete lack of statistical measurements on hurge sectors of the country. I imagine there was a huge increase in employment in post oil-embargo Iran, but this went together with unacceptable social injustices. Rapid petrodollar influx and the predictable corruption (that Shah depended on to keep loyalty) in certain urbanized sectors, basically the destroyed the economy of rural Iran, forcing millions to flock to the cities where they could look forward to a life of "hammali" (being a servent), if they were lucky. This is a longer discussion, and if you write a blog on it, we can continue it there.